[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by karibear

For the most part, that's true. But the American educational system has a lot to answer for, also. There was a report on CNN late March that estimated that the average numbers of high school seniors who actually graduated was in the high 50 percent. The ranges were from the low 40s to a high of 72 of all the schools that were surveyed. Not only are the kids not graduating, the ones who do aren't learning much. In the '80s I worked for a school district, and one of the junior girls - one who had a decent grade average and didn't expect any problem graduating the following year - couldn't spell the name of the street she lived on: Beaver Lake Loop. Nor could she spell her mother's last name - her mother had remarried a couple years earlier, and this girl couldn't spell her stepfather's last name. One of the worst cases I know - a friend's husband was a doctor in private practice. His receptionist was also supposed to transcribe his notes into every patient's file - they found what appeared to be a good one, she was fine on the phone, no problem making appointments, was industious at transcribing dictation. Until he found out she had no concept of medical terminology and was making up her own notes! She was out the door immediately, and a couple weeks worth of files had to be reviewed and corrected, as much as was possible to do so. That was one of the deciding factors, I think, in his decision to retire when he did.

I don't quite understand your point here.
I'm not saying that it is,, but this sounds like it could be a comparison between Americans and Illegals.

Or was it just a taste of todays educational system?

[karibear]

Originally Posted by mkfarnam

I don't quite understand your point here.
I'm not saying that it is,, but this sounds like it could be a comparison between Americans and Illegals.

Or was it just a taste of todays educational system?

Not the illegals, but the out-sourcing of jobs that could easily be done by Americans at home if they were simply well-enough educated. Like Microsoft wanting to hire 300 Indians to work on computer programming. Anyone can USE one, but how can someone who doesn't know how to spell 'computer' the same way twice in a row be expected to write a program for one?

[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by karibear

Not the illegals, but the out-sourcing of jobs that could easily be done by Americans at home if they were simply well-enough educated. Like Microsoft wanting to hire 300 Indians to work on computer programming. Anyone can USE one, but how can someone who doesn't know how to spell 'computer' the same way twice in a row be expected to write a program for one?

Okay..I gothya! very good point. All Bill Gates wants is HB1 and 2's

[techienomad]

Originally Posted by mkfarnam

Okay..I gothya! very good point. All Bill Gates wants is HB1 and 2's

Instead of outsourcing, it's insourcing so Gates doesn't have to move his operations anywhere. He brings people in, pays them a lower wage, and disposes of them when he gets what he wants from them. Then, they disappear into society, often becoming illegal because they overstay their visas or don't renew them. The lengths people will go to not hire citizens.

[briansgi]

Originally Posted by karibear

For the most part, that's true. But the American educational system has a lot to answer for, also. There was a report on CNN late March that estimated that the average numbers of high school seniors who actually graduated was in the high 50 percent. The ranges were from the low 40s to a high of 72 of all the schools that were surveyed. Not only are the kids not graduating, the ones who do aren't learning much. In the '80s I worked for a school district, and one of the junior girls - one who had a decent grade average and didn't expect any problem graduating the following year - couldn't spell the name of the street she lived on: Beaver Lake Loop. Nor could she spell her mother's last name - her mother had remarried a couple years earlier, and this girl couldn't spell her stepfather's last name. One of the worst cases I know - a friend's husband was a doctor in private practice. His receptionist was also supposed to transcribe his notes into every patient's file - they found what appeared to be a good one, she was fine on the phone, no problem making appointments, was industious at transcribing dictation. Until he found out she had no concept of medical terminology and was making up her own notes! She was out the door immediately, and a couple weeks worth of files had to be reviewed and corrected, as much as was possible to do so. That was one of the deciding factors, I think, in his decision to retire when he did.

Your logic is flawed if you are referring to the lack of educated Americans not performing the jobs I was referring to. Those jobs are common laborer jobs, no education needed to pour concrete, or plant shrubs, or mow grass, or installing shingles! How can you expect an American to live on the wages these employers are paying these illegals? Many of the illegals that come here share housing with multiple families, this allows them to live fairly comfortably on the low wages these employers are paying them. That's simply not the standard of how most US citizens live, nor wish to live.

[karibear]

Originally Posted by techienomad

Instead of outsourcing, it's insourcing so Gates doesn't have to move his operations anywhere. He brings people in, pays them a lower wage, and disposes of them when he gets what he wants from them. Then, they disappear into society, often becoming illegal because they overstay their visas or don't renew them. The lengths people will go to not hire citizens.

Maybe so. But that still does not address the fact that relatively few American high school graduates are really ready to work at much beyond manual labor. When I was in 9th grade we read ALL of Shakespeare's plays - the high school where I worked 20 years later offered one play - Hamlet - to the seniors honors class in comic book format, because, according to the teacher, 'they wouldn't understand the language and they'd be bored.' When I was a junior in high school, we read Chaucer in the original Middle English - I doubt if any of the kids in the school where I worked had ever even heard of Chaucer. We were also, if we anticipated going on to college, expected to take at least one foreign language. That school where I worked did offer a class in Russian, but the teaccher hired to teach Russian ended up teaching freshman English, while the Russian class was taught by a history teacher who showed a lot of videos and assigned books to read like The Hunt for the Red October. So much for a second language.

Sorry - education, or the lack of it, is one of my major soapbox topics.

[yensid]

Originally Posted by TimC2462

Thanks for your input. I didn't know you lived in California all your life before relocating to Oklahoma. Living in Monterey for 21 years, the weather was always BORING fo rme. It was the same all year round -- grey and gloomy. The climate is more seasonal here in Bakersfield, with the winter going low as 45 degrees, which is too not bad. I don't mind the summer heat, but wish we had more colder, rain, and windy days.

It's the tornadoes in Oklahoma that I'm a little concerned about.

Tim C.

Well, ironically, when I was in Cali, I was wishing for more "weather" also, but now that I have it, I don't like it as much. But, there are many factors to that as well. If the tornado thing is your main concern, don't worry about it too much. When we first came throug OKC, one thing I thought of was that there were many old buildings....and if tornadoes were that bad here, they wouldn't be still standing. I know where you are coming from, but they aren't really that widespread (I think would be the proper word). If you look at statistics, very few people have really died from them. If anything, when the "big one" hits Cali (which is overdue as far as time), 10's of thousands will probably die based on my geology class in college.

Just know that about 4 months out of the year here, it's pretty much below 40. And it's not the kind of "oh cool...let's go snowmobiling" weather. At least not around OKC. I can't stand it, but that's just me. I try to be obvective on this board because I can't stand all the opinionated crap. Everyone has there own idea of the almost perfect place to live. I hope that I'm helping some.

[techienomad]

Originally Posted by karibear

Maybe so. But that still does not address the fact that relatively few American high school graduates are really ready to work at much beyond manual labor. When I was in 9th grade we read ALL of Shakespeare's plays - the high school where I worked 20 years later offered one play - Hamlet - to the seniors honors class in comic book format, because, according to the teacher, 'they wouldn't understand the language and they'd be bored.' When I was a junior in high school, we read Chaucer in the original Middle English - I doubt if any of the kids in the school where I worked had ever even heard of Chaucer. We were also, if we anticipated going on to college, expected to take at least one foreign language. That school where I worked did offer a class in Russian, but the teacher hired to teach Russian ended up teaching freshman English, while the Russian class was taught by a history teacher who showed a lot of videos and assigned books to read like The Hunt for the Red October. So much for a second language.

Sorry - education, or the lack of it, is one of my major soapbox topics.

Didn't know I was stepping into an argument, I was merely expanding on what was already said and shedding more light on the reality of what's going on. Anyway, I had two friends who have Master's degrees in computer science/programming and one of them has a second Master's in business. Both applied to Microsoft just to see what would happen, never heard anything from Microsoft. This was about five years ago. I really don't buy into the fact that Gates can't find qualified people in the U.S. out the thousands of universities we have, including places like Harvard, Yale, and the rest of the Ivy League? Funny how foreign students are absolutely begging to get into U.S. universities and yet the argument is Gates can't find a soul to work for him.

[karibear]

Originally Posted by techienomad

Didn't know I was stepping into an argument, I was merely expanding on what was already said and shedding more light on the reality of what's going on. Anyway, I had two friends who have Master's degrees in computer science/programming and one of them has a second Master's in business. Both applied to Microsoft just to see what would happen, never heard anything from Microsoft. This was about five years ago. I really don't buy into the fact that Gates can't find qualified people in the U.S. out the thousands of universities we have, including places like Harvard, Yale, and the rest of the Ivy League? Funny how foreign students are absolutely begging to get into U.S. universities and yet the argument is Gates can't find a soul to work for him.

It wasn't really an argument - I was trying to clarify that I wasn't meaning illegals in another post I made, but the lack of educational standards here in the US that are resulting in fewer and fewer graduates who are actually capable of doing some of the mroe demanding jobs. I had a long gap between jobs after I quit that school district, and applied for around 400 others between Anchorage and Kodiak, before I finally got hired - most of the ones I got interviews with told me I was overqualified and no way were they going to hire me, I'd have their jobs in a matter of months. It was long enough ago that the only computer I'd ever used was an Apple IIc - and the job I finally got hired for was for something I'd never had any experience with - office support for a vocational rehab program. My new boss said 'a computer is a computer, if you can use an Apple, you can learn to use a PC,' and I did. He also said 'you're bright, you can learn the program.' And I did - in 9 years I went from being 'just' a xecretary to being a voc rehab counselor.

And just for the sake of accuracy, it's not Gates anymore. He stepped down about a year ago to devote his time to various charities he and his wife are involved with. As much as I dislike some of the programs his company created [particularly MSWord], he supports education in a major way.

[techienomad]

Originally Posted by karibear

It wasn't really an argument - I was trying to clarify that I wasn't meaning illegals in another post I made, but the lack of educational standards here in the US that are resulting in fewer and fewer graduates who are actually capable of doing some of the More demanding jobs. I had a long gap between jobs after I quit that school district, and applied for around 400 others between Anchorage and Kodiak, before I finally got hired - most of the ones I got interviews with told me I was overqualified and no way were they going to hire me, I'd have their jobs in a matter of months. It was long enough ago that the only computer I'd ever used was an Apple IIc - and the job I finally got hired for was for something I'd never had any experience with - office support for a vocational rehab program. My new boss said 'a computer is a computer, if you can use an Apple, you can learn to use a PC,' and I did. He also said 'you're bright, you can learn the program.' And I did - in 9 years I went from being 'just' a secretary to being a voc rehab counselor.

And just for the sake of accuracy, it's not Gates anymore. He stepped down about a year ago to devote his time to various charities he and his wife are involved with. As much as I dislike some of the programs his company created [particularly MSWord], he supports education in a major way.

Yeah, I'm not arguing either. I think we're talking about the same stuff, just in different directions. I know it's not Gates, but rather Ballmer. I just say Gates because he is Microsoft. On that note, have a good day and keep on keeping on.

As for computers, I've used many including TI, Commodore, Apple IIe, Amiga, various IBM junk, HP, Dell, Toshiba, Sony, and built my own. Basically, they're all the same, just with different stuff.