U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Oklahoma
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-21-2013, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma City
374 posts, read 662,801 times
Reputation: 239

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by swake View Post
No, now wait. He’s talking about the culture today. He claims that Indians in eastern and central Oklahoma, in fact the tribes themselves have adopted southern culture, look like and are in fact just like white southerners, today. Pow-wows, frybread etc even though they are more modern are today huge parts of native culture in Oklahoma and they do not exist in the south, except among local Natives. These are important points of differentiation from southern culture as it exists today. Natives today in eastern and central Oklahoma do not see themselves, as he claims, as southerners, but instead as Native Americans with all the cultural elements that includes today. To Natives Oklahoma isn’t Southern, it’s Indian Country.
Once again dude, you are confusing western plains Indians with the Five Civilized Tribes. You are sadly mistaken if you think the majority of southern Indians do not identify with the south. I suggest you travel the state. Go to portions you have obviously not been to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-21-2013, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma City
374 posts, read 662,801 times
Reputation: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by swake View Post
Noted Racist you mean?

From the Southern Poverty Law Center:


A pro-succession White Power author huh? That makes sense, racism was a core part of the old southern culture.

And you claim to be Cherokee? not thinking that would be too popular in Mr Grissom's crowd. It might explain why you are trying so hard to make natives be white.

My wife is Native American, she's not white and she's never called herself southern. She's Muscogee and her mother's family are all fluent speakers. I spend a huge amount of time with people from many tribes and I have never heard of any kind of southern pride or civil war memories. The Choctaw don't take pride in their role in the civil war, they are proud of the WWII code talkers. I am proud to have known one of them. Natives are invariably very pro US military. The US flag and military veterans are treated incredibly reverentially in Native culture. Mr Grissom's successionist writings would be very offensive.

This explains why I have never, ever, seen a native person flying the rebel flag. There's usually one flying at the cheesy t-shirt booth with the fake dream catchers made in china and the offensively bad Indian Dolls that seems to be at almost every pow-wow, but those are all run by some slimy white guy and he's only selling to the tourists.

The Five Tribes are southern tribes as in they were relocated from the south. That does not mean that they share a culture with white southerners. You don't see a lot of Eagle feathers, pow-wows, stomp dances, Native American Church meetings, stick ball, wild onion dinners or frybread in white southern culture do you?

You are just proving my claim that your view of southern culture in OK is clouded by your infatuation with race and addiction to ignorance. You are ashamed of our southern heritage and want it hidden. I talked about white southerner in a contextual and historical manner....not a racial one. Once again, the Choctaw and Cherokee Braves flag I posted ARE CONFEDERATE FLAGS. Take a trip down to Broken bow and YOU WILL SEE THE REBEL FLAG on rooftops, cars and businesses.

The Five Civilized tribes adopted speech, cuisine, religion politics, agriculture and identity from the white Southerner. Nowhere did I say that white southerners outside of Oklahoma adopted the culture from the Indians. However, these Indians are from the southeastern US and still have a huge influence in that area today. Oklahoma is the situated in the South Central United States, not the Midwest of Southwest and more closely resembles the Southeast, mainly because US settlement moves from east to west. Please spare me your race baiting rants and links from the southern poverty center - a known far left organization.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Jenks, Ok
858 posts, read 1,411,830 times
Reputation: 855
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnspecial View Post
Once again dude, you are confusing western plains Indians with the Five Civilized Tribes. You are sadly mistaken if you think the majority of southern Indians do not identify with the south. I suggest you travel the state. Go to portions you have obviously not been to.
I'm confusing nothing. I'm married into the Five Civilized Tribes. Hell, my wife WORKS for the tribe. My wife's family has a camp at her traditional stomp ground, in fact Indian football starts in a couple of week. My animals don't speak English, only Creek. I've been many times to her family's traditional Indian Church. Now her step father is from a plains tribe and we go to those events too. We also to Pow-wows regularly which traditionally isn't a Five Civilized Tribes thing. That would be why my son dances Straight, very little stomp dancing at Pow-wows. I Gourd Dance a little. This weekend we are having a family party and will have 30+ people at my house who are creek and various other tribes. My wife is going to make Indian Tacos, I get to make the chili.

I may be a bit familiar with the differences.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
152 posts, read 259,418 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by swake View Post
No, now wait. He’s talking about the culture today. He claims that Indians in eastern and central Oklahoma, in fact the tribes themselves have adopted southern culture, look like and are in fact just like white southerners, today. Pow-wows, frybread etc even though they are more modern are today huge parts of native culture in Oklahoma and they do not exist in the south, except among local Natives. These are important points of differentiation from southern culture as it exists today. Natives today in eastern and central Oklahoma do not see themselves, as he claims, as southerners, but instead as Native Americans with all the cultural elements that includes today. To Natives Oklahoma isn’t Southern, it’s Indian Country.
Ah, I think I see what you were trying to say now. I thought you were denying any and all cultural similarities, but it sounds like you were just pointing out that white and Native Southerners have their own, unique cultural identities, correct? Although I am always careful when I talk about Native self identity because it can vary so wildly. I have met some who parade around in Civil War Confederate uniforms at reenactments and take pride in claiming they are undeniably part of Southern heritage by teaching about their tribe's participation in the war (Eastern Band Cherokee, I think they said) I also have met some who get outraged when so much as called the "first Americans" because they feel like it is insulting to imply that their ancestor's identified by a European word and it ignores that their people fought for independence FROM America. They want nothing to do with "North" or "South." I have simultaneously met some who are perhaps even less connected to their ancestral culture than I am despite actually qualifying as a member of the Tlinget Nation. (I wouldn't qualify as Cherokee and don't self-identify as one despite having some ancestry. It feels disingenuous.) It is difficult to pin down how a huge demographic which has so many internal ethnicities and experiences generally feels. Of course, that's looking at people with Native heritage I have met within the South in general rather than Oklahoma specifically. (The Tlinget Nation is actually from Alaska I believe, but the guy I'm thinking of grew up in the town near mine and acts like any other local. The Eastern Band Cherokee are in North Carolina.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Both sides of the Red River
780 posts, read 2,008,231 times
Reputation: 1100
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnspecial View Post
The northern most portion of the Dallas Metroplex is McKinney Texas - 60 miles from Durant. That is not a suburb. It's not even that close. It's like saying Paul's Valley is a suburb of OKC. I can also look at Google maps to see that these towns aren't even close to being connected. It may be closer to Dallas than OKC, but it is not part of the Dallas metroplex.
Take it up with the Census Bureau, chief. I can't help it that you can't accept basic facts.

Obviously the data they review showed a definite economic link between Durant and the rest of DFW. Something that has been confirmed by several people here.

There is no similar link Pauls Valley and OKC, hence why Garvin County is not part of OKC CSA.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 04:44 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,443 posts, read 7,903,253 times
Reputation: 3108
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnspecial View Post
Incorrect. I understand that you want to portray Oklahoma as some neutral land during the Civil War, and you want to erase the past by acting as if we had no involvement. Had Oklahoma been a state during the war, there is a 100 percent guarantee that we would have joined the Confederacy. There was only a small band of Cherokees that sided with the Union towards the end of the war. This was only because they felt it was the best way to avoid any conflict. The Creeks and Seminoles never sided with the Union. That is just flat out false.
Union and Confederate Indians in the Civil War

The only Union control in the area was at Ft Gibson around Ft. Smith Arkansas.
Important Military Outposts of Early Southeastern Oklahoma - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com
Civil War Traveler: Oklahoma Forts

All Five Civilized Tribes sided with the Confederacy and even sent representative to the Confederate Congress.

Furthermore, the flags I posted earlier were the Choctaw and Cherokee Braves Confederate flags. The Rebel flag is the most common Civil War flag in Oklahoma still to this day. It is a display of southern pride.
>>>>>
Had Oklahoma been a state during the war, there is a 100 percent guarantee that we would have joined the Confederacy.
<<<<<

To be sure, that is true, irregardless of the other particulars of Oklahoma and its involvement with the Confederacy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2013, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Tulsa, OK
2,572 posts, read 3,602,817 times
Reputation: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by #1soonerfan View Post
Take it up with the Census Bureau, chief. I can't help it that you can't accept basic facts.

Obviously the data they review showed a definite economic link between Durant and the rest of DFW. Something that has been confirmed by several people here.

There is no similar link Pauls Valley and OKC, hence why Garvin County is not part of OKC CSA.
I drive down to Dallas about once a month. I leave Tulsa and travel the Muskogee Turnpike, I then take US 69 onto Dallas. I take that route because my folks live near Lake Eufaula so I always stop and see them.

Most of the route from Muskogee to Durant goes through some of the poorest parts of Oklahoma. By the time I get to Durant the whole trip starts to change. You don't see quit as much poverty, and you see a lot of new growth. I really feel like at this point of the trip I'm at the gateway of the DFW Metro area. And it's not just me but most, if not everyone I know feel the same. I hear everyone who has driven through Durant say DFW has almost expanded up to Durant.

Now the United States Census Bureau has come out and said that Bryan Country Oklahoma is part of the Dallas/Fort Worth Combined Statistical Area. This is not just something they said could be, or might be, but they said for a fact that Bryan Country Oklahoma is part of the Dallas/Fort Worth Combined Statistical area. I don't know why Mr. Special is confused about this. Seems no one else is surprised about this recent announcement.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2013, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma City
374 posts, read 662,801 times
Reputation: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by okie1962 View Post
I drive down to Dallas about once a month. I leave Tulsa and travel the Muskogee Turnpike, I then take US 69 onto Dallas. I take that route because my folks live near Lake Eufaula so I always stop and see them.

Most of the route from Muskogee to Durant goes through some of the poorest parts of Oklahoma. By the time I get to Durant the whole trip starts to change. You don't see quit as much poverty, and you see a lot of new growth. I really feel like at this point of the trip I'm at the gateway of the DFW Metro area. And it's not just me but most, if not everyone I know feel the same. I hear everyone who has driven through Durant say DFW has almost expanded up to Durant.

Now the United States Census Bureau has come out and said that Bryan Country Oklahoma is part of the Dallas/Fort Worth Combined Statistical Area. This is not just something they said could be, or might be, but they said for a fact that Bryan Country Oklahoma is part of the Dallas/Fort Worth Combined Statistical area. I don't know why Mr. Special is confused about this. Seems no one else is surprised about this recent announcement.
The Dallas/Fort Worth Combined Statistical area is not the same thing as the Dallas Metroplex. I am not the one confused. Durant may have economic ties to Dallas simply because of its proximity. This is completely understandable. People from Durant will have business ties to the closest metropolitan area. However, you are the one confused on what that actually means. "Combined statistical area is not the actual city. That does not mean the greater Dallas metroplex. It is the area that the city affects directly or indirectly through commerce. Durant is in another state and cannot adhere to the tax codes or state laws of Texas. That isn't not going to change. We are not going to de-annex Durant so Texas can collect their taxes and manage their state funds just because Dallas is inching closer to the Red River. And for the last time, the southern most edge of Durant is 60 miles from the northern most suburb of Dallas. The two towns do not run into each other.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2013, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Jenks, Ok
858 posts, read 1,411,830 times
Reputation: 855
Metroplex is not a real word and has no formal meaning. It’s basically slang.

There is the Dallas-Ft Worth-Arlington Metropolitan Statistical Area and then the larger and less cohesive Dallas-Ft Worth TX-OK Combined Statistical Area. The CSA includes the Dallas MSA as well as the following areas that you might call exurbs: Sherman-Dennison MSA, Athens TX Micropolitan Statistical Area, Corsicana TX Micropolitan Statistical Area, Gainesville TX Micropolitan Statistical Area, Sulpher Springs TX Micropolitan Statistical Area and yes, the Durant OK Micropolitan Statistical Area

As comparison the Oklahoma City-Shawnee CSA includes the Oklahoma City MSA and the Shawnee Micropolitan Statistical Area. The Tulsa-Muskogee-Bartlesville CSA includes the Tulsa-Broken Arrow MSA, the Bartlesville Micropolitan Statistical Area and the Muskogee Micropolitan Statistical Area.

This is all based on commuter patterns and city relationships. Usually cities are mostly contiguous inside of MSAs but the CSAs allow for the more distant areas to be included that still have strong commuter patterns and relationships to the parent MSA. Inside of MSAs are what are called Urbanized Areas (the more dense areas of the MSA) and Metropolitan Divisions which are smaller divisions of very large MSAs, Dallas and Arlington have one and Ft Worth has one in the Dallas Ft Worth Arlington MSA.

Taxes are irrelevant here. Texas never will “annex” Durant, that is a incorporated city question that does not cross state lines. We are talking about the concept of Metropolitan Areas as defined by the US Census.

You might be interested to know that there are many CSAs and MSAs that cross state lines. The Washington DC-Baltimore CSA exists in DC, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Delaware. That’s five states and DC. The Ft Smith MSA in Arkansas includes two counties in Oklahoma with no tax problems.

Now not all MSAs have a CSA, you have to have strongly related but more distant MSAs and Micropolitan Statistical Areas that are still related to the core city to have a CSA. Phoenix, though it is one of the largest metros in the nation has no CSA. CSAs and MSAs are then combined into PSAs, that is Primary Statistical Areas, which is the listing of All the CSAs and all MSAs that have no CSA. Maybe you should get out more.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2013, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Tulsa, OK
2,572 posts, read 3,602,817 times
Reputation: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnspecial View Post
The Dallas/Fort Worth Combined Statistical area is not the same thing as the Dallas Metroplex. I am not the one confused. Durant may have economic ties to Dallas simply because of its proximity. This is completely understandable. People from Durant will have business ties to the closest metropolitan area. However, you are the one confused on what that actually means. "Combined statistical area is not the actual city. That does not mean the greater Dallas metroplex. It is the area that the city affects directly or indirectly through commerce. Durant is in another state and cannot adhere to the tax codes or state laws of Texas. That isn't not going to change. We are not going to de-annex Durant so Texas can collect their taxes and manage their state funds just because Dallas is inching closer to the Red River. And for the last time, the southern most edge of Durant is 60 miles from the northern most suburb of Dallas. The two towns do not run into each other.
I never once said Durant was a part of Dallas or the DFW metroplex or was in danger of being annexed by Texas. There are many cities that sit on a border or near a border that do share a MSA. KC, St Louis, Louisville, NYC, Philly... I do know the difference between a CSA and MSA.

Bryan Country Oklahoma is part of the Dallas/Fort Worth CSA. You also keep saying Durant is 60 miles from the northern most suburb of Dallas. The Census doesn't measure CSA and MSA from city to city but from county to county. The southern most part of Bryan Country Oklahoma is only 20 miles north of Collin Country Texas as the crow flies. If you feel so strongly about this, go on with your one-man crusade to Washington DC and take this up with the Census Bureau.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Oklahoma
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top