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Old 07-21-2007, 11:52 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,930 posts, read 9,456,809 times
Reputation: 1022

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Quote:
Originally Posted by citybythebay View Post
This is not a debate on what I have said or PBM.
YOU have posted many false statements and are trying to
state them as facts...when in fact, that is not what that they are.
Not even close to being facts.
And now your comparing the dogs to white tigers? My goodness.
You're stretching now. And I think you are aware of that.


My points were not 'defeated' as you would like to think.
My point that you didn't bother to read is apparent.
You only see and hear what you want to.
You are wrong in your assumptions and unfortunately you can't swallow
that fact.

You're a hype machine...it's almost to a level of paranoia...which is quite disturbing....but this seems to be all you thrive on and it's very obvious in your posting style.

People love to use spout off about anything which they generally have no knowledge about.
You just so happened to choose this topic.
It's sad actually.

You have more than enough positive information from people like PBM, myself, Sam, lastra and others but you still choose to incite paranoia along with hysteria.

It's a very common response from people such as yourself who cannot handle the fact that well trained, loved, happy, APBT's and the like, actually do exist.
It's time to take the blinders off.

I know that the job I do as far as educating the public on the positives and proving it by bringing my dog as 'proof' and opening up MANY peoples eyes, is just the beginning.
And I know PBM as well as others do an excellent job at posting positive information along with personal experience.

And if I can prove to one person those positives....than I've done my job.
And I intend to continue to educate people.
I couldn't agree more. I feel the same way.. As long as my husband and I are good, responsible, respectful owners and I can educate even just one person on these wonderful breeds, I have done my job! My dogs are so amazing, smart, obedient, loyal, devoted, sweet, they bring so much joy and happiness to my life every single day, the least I can do is be the best owner I can be and try to speed the truth about their breed!

It makes me so happy and really gives me hope to know that people like yourself (Citybythebay), Sam I Am, Lastra, BrianH, JSOM, etc are out there spreading the truth and standing up for these great breeds that can't stand up for themselves!

 
Old 07-22-2007, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Elkhorn, NE
23 posts, read 70,605 times
Reputation: 18
Default Disturbing

This thread is very disturbing. As an obedience trainer, with prior experience as a police dog decoy trainer, I am fully aware of the range of "drives" within a dog. ANY DOG. This drive cannot be bred into a dog. It can be cultivated, and honed, or, not. Jesse_James, has some strong feelings surrounding "pit bulls." Let me say this, I've come across a lab in training that had the prey dive of about 5 massive dogs...

I'd be interested to read comments about the other breeds of dogs that many homeowner's insurance companies will not allow in their coverage. Unfortunately, the reason some prejudices exist, is that there was enough substantial information at some point to draw a conclusion. This does not mean they are accurate conclusions, but may have some merit.

I have come across dogs that are genetically inferior--- that is, this dog has a genetic defect that prevents him from being an appropriate pet. This is rare and is not breed-specific. Humans, too, can be genetically inferior. Finger pointing does no good in these situations.

There is no simple answer. Any breed of dog can be ruined by cultivating the wrong drive. And no, no dog is exempt. You want a vicious collie, a nervous poodle, a dangerous retriever, an aggressive "pit bull"? For the most part, it boils down to intention.
 
Old 07-22-2007, 10:28 AM
 
Location: So. Dak.
13,495 posts, read 34,002,679 times
Reputation: 15058
Taly, there are areas of the country that insurance is totally illogical in insuring pets. I have family in Fla. who ended up switching insurance companies. The company they had refused to insure their pool screen AND their dog. There's nothing vicious about this dog~he's a well-trained, well-behaved little Jack Russell.

It just amazes me how HUMANS have forced inter-breeding to make dogs "fit" for dog fighting and other heinous acts. Now they scratch their heads as to why it takes strict discipline to train those breeds properly. IMHO the blame needs to be placed on the humans rather then the dogs.

Last edited by Jammie; 07-22-2007 at 10:39 AM..
 
Old 07-22-2007, 10:51 AM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 16,279,874 times
Reputation: 7572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyamc View Post
This thread is very disturbing. As an obedience trainer, with prior experience as a police dog decoy trainer, I am fully aware of the range of "drives" within a dog. ANY DOG. This drive cannot be bred into a dog. It can be cultivated, and honed, or, not. Jesse_James, has some strong feelings surrounding "pit bulls." Let me say this, I've come across a lab in training that had the prey dive of about 5 massive dogs...

I'd be interested to read comments about the other breeds of dogs that many homeowner's insurance companies will not allow in their coverage. Unfortunately, the reason some prejudices exist, is that there was enough substantial information at some point to draw a conclusion. This does not mean they are accurate conclusions, but may have some merit.

I have come across dogs that are genetically inferior--- that is, this dog has a genetic defect that prevents him from being an appropriate pet. This is rare and is not breed-specific. Humans, too, can be genetically inferior. Finger pointing does no good in these situations.

There is no simple answer. Any breed of dog can be ruined by cultivating the wrong drive. And no, no dog is exempt. You want a vicious collie, a nervous poodle, a dangerous retriever, an aggressive "pit bull"? For the most part, it boils down to intention.
Talymac, thank you for your professional opinion as one who works with dogs on a regular basis. Here is what I've come across in just a wee little bit of research - I certainly do not claim to have all the answers.

In my home state, Arkansas:

Atkins, Arkansas has already banned Pits. Russellville has banned. Little Rock is talking about banning. Jacksonville has banned. North Little Rock has banned Pits AND Rotts AND MIXES OF BOTH (with a $500 PER YEAR license fee if you have one!). Pine Bluff has banned. Beebe has banned. Gosnell, McGehee, Piggott, Siloam Springs, Maumelle, Jonesboro (also German Shepherds), Mountain Home, Sherwood, Arkansas City.


BANS
Allstate - and this comes directly from their site:

Allstate adds 8 dog breeds to no-policy list
Insurance company cites number and severity of claims

By TANYA SOMAROO, tsomaroo@news-press.com

...The company will no longer write new policies for the owners of eight additional breeds of dogs — Staffordshire terriers, Dobermans, Rottweilers, chows, Presa Canarios, akitas, wolf hybrids and huskies.
Allstate always had just one breed on its “no policy” list: pit bulls.

The Hartford
Nationwide Mutual Insurance Company
Quincy Mutual Fire Insurance Company
Liberty Mutual Insurance
Will not deny coverage based solely on breed, but reviews the following breeds for ''insurance acceptability": Akita, Alaskan Malamute, Canary dog/Presa Canario, Chow, Doberman, German shepherd, pit bull, Rottweiler, Siberian husky. Acceptability may depend on training, temperament, vaccinations, and prior insurance claims.

Hingham Group

Andover Companies (Cambridge Mutual and Merrimack Mutual)
''Likes to avoid" the following breeds: Akita, American bulldog, bullmastiff, Chow, pit bull, Rottweiler, Staffordshire terrier, wolf hybrids, and any dog with a previous biting history or known aggressive tendencies.

Commerce Insurance Company
Considers the following breeds ''unacceptable": Akita, American bulldog, bullmastiff or mastiff, Chow, Doberman, German shepherd, Presa Canario, pit bull, Staffordshire terrier, ''wolf dog," and any combination of these. Prospective customers with these dogs will not be accepted.

Geico


DOG FRIENDLY

Here are some companies that pet owners report are dog-friendly and tend not to discriminate by breed: State Farm, Farmers Insurance Group, Travelers, Liberty Mutual, United Services Automobile Association, Erie, Firemans Fund, Kemper, Chubb Group, an Safeco Corp.


I keep editing myself, lol...! But I found this interesting from Liberty Mutual Acceptability may depend on training, temperament, vaccinations, and prior insurance claims.

Maybe I'm just dumber than dirt, and I "get" 3 out of 4 - but who is judging my dogs' temperaments? A stranger (read "insurance salesman") coming to my door? You will probably see their loud and obnoxious side before they roll over for their belly rub.....I just can't imagine we're going to have an INSURANCE AGENT deciding whether my dogs are nice or not? Wow - that may be worth a phone call in itself...

Last edited by Sam I Am; 07-22-2007 at 11:11 AM..
 
Old 07-22-2007, 07:52 PM
 
13 posts, read 75,809 times
Reputation: 15
I think what these cities and insurance companies are TRYING to ban is the irresponsible people who have these specific dog breeds. People who fight dogs or sell drugs or are in gangs aren't exactly breeding Lhapso Apsos or Jack Russells.
Problem is, blanket legislation like this does more harm then good. There are MANY more responsible pitbull owners out there than not.
I am one of them. My wife and I have a pitbull from the SPCA that we got at 7 months old. She was picked up walking in a ghetto-neighborhood, thin with open bite marks on her legs and covered in fleas. The SPCA did a great job cleaning her up and we took her home 3 days later.

This is my first pitbull (she might be mixed with a little Boxer, we'll never know)...and we've had her for 1 year.

Pitbulls are NOT for everyone...as German Shepherds or Rotties aren't either.
If you're not going to exercise working dogs like these, they become frustrated. A frustrated small dog can do damage, a frustrated big dog (ANY big dog) can be a nightmare or disaster waiting to happen.
If you want a dog to lay on the floor 22 hours a day, eat, poo, and you can spend 15 minutes atmost per day with it then CERTAINLY DON'T get a pitbull.
Pitbulls are not decorative pieces added to your living room.

If you want a dog, one that will ADORE you, your friends, your family and your neighbors, be ridiculously affectionate, play hard, word hard and love hard, and wants to be with you whether you're taking a nap or going for a ride in the car...and you have the dedication to walk/exercise it EVERY day and socialize it at an early age...then I HIGHLY recommend a pitbull.
They are OUTSTANDING dogs.

Jesse: Don't bad-mouth a breed you know NOTHING about. Its uneducated statements like yours that fuel this anti-pitbull crap in the firstplace.
Maybe you should rethink your position that pitbulls are genetically vicious considering the Alabama Supreme Court said the COMPLETE OPPOSITE:
BREED SPECIFIC Legislation was dealt a savage blow last week in an historic victory for American campaigners when the Supreme Court in Alabama ruled that there was no genetic evidence that one breed of dog was more dangerous than another, simply because of its breed.

This is what a pitbull, in the hands of a responsible owner, can do:

YouTube - You Can't Bring Me Down - Wallace the Pit Bull

Last edited by PoohBrown; 07-22-2007 at 08:11 PM..
 
Old 07-22-2007, 08:42 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,930 posts, read 9,456,809 times
Reputation: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoohBrown View Post
I think what these cities and insurance companies are TRYING to ban is the irresponsible people who have these specific dog breeds. People who fight dogs or sell drugs or are in gangs aren't exactly breeding Lhapso Apsos or Jack Russells.
Problem is, blanket legislation like this does more harm then good. There are MANY more responsible pitbull owners out there than not.
I am one of them. My wife and I have a pitbull from the SPCA that we got at 7 months old. She was picked up walking in a ghetto-neighborhood, thin with open bite marks on her legs and covered in fleas. The SPCA did a great job cleaning her up and we took her home 3 days later.

This is my first pitbull (she might be mixed with a little Boxer, we'll never know)...and we've had her for 1 year.

Pitbulls are NOT for everyone...as German Shepherds or Rotties aren't either.
If you're not going to exercise working dogs like these, they become frustrated. A frustrated small dog can do damage, a frustrated big dog (ANY big dog) can be a nightmare or disaster waiting to happen.
If you want a dog to lay on the floor 22 hours a day, eat, poo, and you can spend 15 minutes atmost per day with it then CERTAINLY DON'T get a pitbull.
Pitbulls are not decorative pieces added to your living room.

If you want a dog, one that will ADORE you, your friends, your family and your neighbors, be ridiculously affectionate, play hard, word hard and love hard, and wants to be with you whether you're taking a nap or going for a ride in the car...and you have the dedication to walk/exercise it EVERY day and socialize it at an early age...then I HIGHLY recommend a pitbull.
They are OUTSTANDING dogs.

Jesse: Don't bad-mouth a breed you know NOTHING about. Its uneducated statements like yours that fuel this anti-pitbull crap in the firstplace.
Maybe you should rethink your position that pitbulls are genetically vicious considering the Alabama Supreme Court said the COMPLETE OPPOSITE:
BREED SPECIFIC Legislation was dealt a savage blow last week in an historic victory for American campaigners when the Supreme Court in Alabama ruled that there was no genetic evidence that one breed of dog was more dangerous than another, simply because of its breed.
I have to say, wonderful post! I agree with everything you said! I'm not sure if you have read any of my posts or not, but my husband and I own three American Pit Bull Terriers. We have a 1 year 2 month old, male, named Brooklyn, that we took in when no one could find him a good home, we have a 6 month old, female, named Destiny, that would have died if we didn't get her and get her to the vet right when we did and we have a 7 1/2 month old, female, named Jayda, that we just took in about a week ago now. Her owners were not good people at all, they abused her, neglected her, chained her up on the back porch, moved away and left her! All of our dogs are absolute sweet hearts! They are all very well trained and socialized, they are all very obedient and they all love everyone and everything! I'm definitely not an expert on "pit bulls", out of all three "pit bull" breeds I have only ever owned American Pit Bull Terriers so, I have never had any real personal experience with American Staffordshire Terriers or Staffordshire Bull Terriers, but I do know quite a bit about all three breeds from research and I know a lot about APBTs from research and experience. I know that a well raised, well trained, well socialized, well loved "pit bull" will be an amazing dog! "Pit bulls" are some of the only breeds that were bred specifically to be amazingly human friendly, stable, trustworthy and loyal! I just really don't understand why people would choose to believe all of the crazy myths and twisted media hype over the facts that have been put in front of them time and time again. I know that not all "pit bulls" are like ours, not all of them are sweet hearts, but that's really not their fault and it is certainly not because of the breed. I understand that something really needs to be done, but breed bans are not the answer! All it will do is cause a false sense of security. All of the gang bangers, thugs, druggies, drug dealers, dog fighters, etc will just move on to another breed and do the same thing! It's going to be really sad if all of the "pit bull" haters have to learn that the hard way! I have posted this sooooo many times, but again, in my opinion, this is what needs to be done...

-Put a stop to leash law violations...Higher penalties for owners who violate the leash law will dissuade more people from slacking on their duties to contain their dog
-Strengthen and enforce penalties for dangerous owners (and their dangerous dogs)
-Crack down on dog fighting
-Strengthen animal abuse laws
-Prevent criminals from owning dogs...The following people should not be allowed to own dogs: drug dealers, human or animal abusers, and anyone convicted of a violent offense (assault, rape, robbery, etc.)
-Regulate breeders
-Fund public spay/neuter initiatives...These programs are important, especially low-cost ones. Unneutered dogs, particularly males, are far more likely to attack a human than either neutered males or spayed females.
-Educate about dog behavior (Stay Dog Bite Free! | The Humane Society of the United States (http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/dog_care/stay_dog_bite_free/ - broken link))
-Encourage responsible dog ownership
-Provide low-cost obedience training classes and behavior help hotlines for dog owners

Also, people need to do research on any breed before getting it! Every breed is different and not all breeds are for everyone! That's is another huge problem! A lot of people get "pit bulls" not realizing how much work they are.. lol! As you have already said, they are very high energy breeds that need lots of exercise every single day! For example, we walk ours 3 times a day for 30 to 45 minutes each walk, we take them to the beach once or twice a week, we take them to the park as much as possible and we play with them a lot at home! They are dominate breeds that need a strong "pack" leader to keep them in line. They are also breeds that get very attached to their owners very quickly and they are not for people that want an outside dog or won't be home a lot. Some people will get "pit bulls" and keep them outside, leave them home alone a lot, not exercise them nearly enough, not properly train and socialize them, etc and that causes a "problem" dog. Anyway, I'm going to stop now or I will go on forever, but I'm so glad to see another pitty owner on here standing up for these wonderful breeds and again, thanks for your post!
 
Old 07-23-2007, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Omaha
88 posts, read 73,669 times
Reputation: 27
Man Saves Neighbor From Vicious Dog Attack
KOTV - 7/21/2007 3:54 PM - Updated 7/23/2007 6:33 AM
A Tulsa man will be honored this week for saving another man's life. Back in April, Michael Cook came to the rescue when a pitbull attacked his neighbor. The News On 6’s Chris Wright reports Cook will receive the Citizen Appreciation Award from Tulsa police on Tuesday, an honor his neighbor says he more than deserves.

Marvin Battle walks with a cane these days, but says considering what happen to him on April 25th, he can live with the limp.

"I can't bend my leg. I have to go through physical therapy,” said Battle. “I've been on a lot of pain medications. I have panic attacks and I have nightmares."

Those nightmares stem from a vicious pitbull attack. Cook was walking his 6-year-old Chow Chow, Xena, and his 2-year-old Pomeranian, Jazzy, when he says the pitbull came out of nowhere.

"I turned around to go back to the house, and the dog knocked me down,” Battle said. The pitbull killed the Pomeranian, injured the Chow, and then turned its attention to Battle.

"I'm fighting for my life here. If someone doesn't come help me or if this dog doesn't stop, I'm going to be killed. So all I'm thinking is saving my life,” Battle said.

Michael Cook heard all the commotion, grabbed his gun, and came outside. He says the only thing he'd ever shot at before was a target, and the margin for error was thin. Fortunately, the pitbull looked up for a split second, and Cook pulled the trigger.

"So I bent down to try and shoot the dog from the side. When I did, that's when he raised up, and I shot him in the head,” Cook said.

The pitbull was killed, and Battle, though injured severely, was alive. He says he owes his life to his neighbor, and the two, who did not know each other before the attack, have become friends.

"It was terrible. Had my neighbor Mike not come out and shot the dog, it would have killed me,” Battle said.

"I think we're becoming pretty good friends,” Cook said. “Turns out we have a lot more in common than I thought we did. Marvin's a good guy."

Cook spent a week in the hospital recovering from his injuries. No one knows exactly who owned the pitbull. Battle believes it belonged to his neighbors, who have several other pitbulls.

We talked to those neighbors Saturday, and they say the dog was not theirs.
 
Old 07-23-2007, 06:52 AM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 16,279,874 times
Reputation: 7572
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse--james View Post
Man Saves Neighbor From Vicious Dog Attack
KOTV - 7/21/2007 3:54 PM - Updated 7/23/2007 6:33 AM
A Tulsa man will be honored this week for saving another man's life. Back in April, Michael Cook came to the rescue when a pitbull attacked his neighbor.
Blah, blah, blah - thanks for the sensationalism, we certainly needed that.

Get over it. Bad owners = bad dogs.

Now, where IS my story about the therapy dogs? I will post it very, very soon....you really aren't presenting any facts for your stories, only headline grabbers. Try to open your mind a little bit.
 
Old 07-23-2007, 08:54 AM
 
1,397 posts, read 4,390,803 times
Reputation: 2672
EXCELLENT POST PBM!!!People should see more of this pictures. Maybe then they'll realize how caring these creatures are!!!

O, and I saw the statistics at the end of the post. At least my GS is not so close, but still up there...

EXCELLENT POST!!!

O, plus I forgot to tell. It seems that people don't pay attention when media says statistics about cigarette related or car related deaths. "NOTHING IMPORTANT"!!!That bugs the hell out of me!!!But, when it comes to "pit-bull" related deaths, which is close to nothing, THAT HAS TO BE SOME CRAZY ARTICLE!!!

Last edited by Jammie; 07-23-2007 at 09:12 AM.. Reason: merged
 
Old 07-23-2007, 10:16 AM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,930 posts, read 9,456,809 times
Reputation: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by lastra View Post
EXCELLENT POST PBM!!!People should see more of this pictures. Maybe then they'll realize how caring these creatures are!!!

O, and I saw the statistics at the end of the post. At least my GS is not so close, but still up there...

EXCELLENT POST!!!

O, plus I forgot to tell. It seems that people don't pay attention when media says statistics about cigarette related or car related deaths. "NOTHING IMPORTANT"!!!That bugs the hell out of me!!!But, when it comes to "pit-bull" related deaths, which is close to nothing, THAT HAS TO BE SOME CRAZY ARTICLE!!!
Thanks! I agree about the whole media thing! What drives me nuts is when the front page of a newspaper is a story of a "pit bull" attacking someone, but most of the time, when you look at the picture, the dog looks nothing like a "pit bull" or at best it maybe looks like it has a little tiny bit of "pit bull" in it! Oh, but when a "pit bull" does something wonderful, like save their owner or a child, they will say the dog is a Boxer mix, write a tiny little story about it and stick it in the middle of the newspaper! The really sad part of it all is that they only do that because most people would rather hear horror stories about "pit bulls" then the truth! So, the media will butcher stories.. add things in, take things out, twist crap around, use a different dogs picture (I have seen that happen many, many, many times), etc to make the story as over dramatic as they can, so that ignorant, disturbed, ill informed, close-minded, sick, heartless people will get what they want and in turn the media gets their ratings, which we all know is all the media wants!
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