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Old 06-28-2011, 04:01 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,673,880 times
Reputation: 1272

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOnTheMoon View Post
Obviously I don't have to tell you that that is religious reasoning, and thus, should be nowhere near our laws.
Says who? The founding fathers certainly didn't teach that.
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You also lump murder and robbery in with homosexuality, using the shaky logic that Christian morals make sense in one instance, they can be appled universally.
The bible condemns both. I'm just trying to establish what we should base our morals on.
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I shouldn't have to say so, but Christians don't have a monopoly on ethics. They don't have exclusive rights to object to murder or robbery.
What standard of morality do you have then?
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Plenty of people, myself included, live by our own codes of ethics without the need for religion. I don't steal, I do my nest to not harm anybody, and I constantly try to remind myself to be humble and grateful for what I am fortunate enough to have.
Why not? What is your morality based on? Is that superior to anyone else that might decide they would like to do those things?
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I imagine you would describe yourself in a similar way, Calvinist. But we are different, obviously. I don't believe there is a god. Further, I believe that there probably is no god, a step further down the pagan path, though the scientist in me stops me from speaking in absolutes. If I hold similar values as religious people while being without religion, an intelligent person would conclude that these are not uniquely religious values.
At least for now, you might agree with religious people. What happens when society or whatever you base your values on, changes? What happens when someone else with a different set of morals disagrees with you?
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Now, it's irrelevant whose morals are superior, since we're not discussing who would mske the best role model for children, a discussion where moral character is a relevant topic. Instead, we're discussing the law, the law in a country I'll remind you is supposed to be secular.
Correct. And you can't definitively say what should and shouldn't be law.
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If the justification for legislation is purely religious, it shouldn't be legislation. Not here.
Why?
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If you want to introduce it as s code of conduct at your church, that would be applicable, but using religion to justify laws is archaic, puritan thinking. Now, the logical legislative reasoning behind crimes like rape, murder, and robbery being considered, well, crimes, should be obvious to you, but please feel free to point out any laws you feel are strictly the result of religious influence, and what makes them so applicable today.
Why?

Keep in mind that I'm not actually arguing for making it illegal. I just don't think it's reasonable to make legislation to create a new form of marriage that caters to a very small minority of people.

 
Old 06-28-2011, 05:02 PM
 
2,665 posts, read 2,176,068 times
Reputation: 1471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Says who?
Says the constitution of the united states. And affirmed by the judicial branch on many occasions.

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I'm just trying to establish what we should base our morals on.
I already gave you a very viable, objective model.

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I just don't think it's reasonable to make legislation to create a new form of marriage that caters to a very small minority of people.
We know. But thus far you have failed to give us an objective, non-theological case for labeling homosexuality as immoral, nor have you demonstrated how you are harmed by this new form of marriage.
 
Old 06-28-2011, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
163 posts, read 320,902 times
Reputation: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Says who? The founding fathers certainly didn't teach that.

The bible condemns both. I'm just trying to establish what we should base our morals on.

What standard of morality do you have then?

Why not? What is your morality based on? Is that superior to anyone else that might decide they would like to do those things?

At least for now, you might agree with religious people. What happens when society or whatever you base your values on, changes? What happens when someone else with a different set of morals disagrees with you?

Correct. And you can't definitively say what should and shouldn't be law.

Why?

Why?

Keep in mind that I'm not actually arguing for making it illegal. I just don't think it's reasonable to make legislation to create a new form of marriage that caters to a very small minority of people.
The founding fathers established that we should not be compelled by our government to adopt any religion. If the government starts basing laws on edicts and teachings of a religion, that is, in effect, forcing every citizen to acknowledge and accept that religion. Whether or not the teaching is shared by many faiths is irrelevant, homosexuality is condemned in many faiths, but it is still possible that someone is being made to compromise their spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof by being forced by the government to obey laws specific to certain religions that may very well be in conflict with their own.

The problem with defaulting to the Bible, or any religious text as a moral compass is that it removes any righteousness from the followers. Being a good person because you believe that God told you to, or that there is a reward in the afterlife for living in a certain way is not really being a good person. It's a means to an end, a person who is good only because of religion is no more legitimate than a film actor playing a role. There's something in it for them, so they'll pretend to be a superhero, or a cop, or a faithful follower of the one true religion for a little while. There's nothing charitable or benevolent about that. By the same token, those people would violate supposedly sacred pillars of their faith, and behave like savage monsters if they believed God told them to. And history has no shortage of exampled of this. So no, I disagree that the Bible is a source for good morals simply by virtue of being the Bible.

I don't have an itemized list of morals, what is right and what is wrong. I simply believe in brightening the corner of existence I inhabit. My goal in life is simply to leave the world a better place (however slightly) than it was when I entered it. Part of that is a contempt towards bigotry, or when it is sanctioned by religion-- devotion. Let me be clear, though. I have no ill-will towards the religious, just the religions. There's an old quotation I admire "Without religion, you would have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but to make good people do bad things, you'll ned religion."

As I've said, we're supposed to be a secular country. To keep gay marriage illegal on religioud grounds, the government is endorsing a religion, and making it law. That contradicts everything this country is supposed to stand for. This isn't a radical concept, gsy marriage. It's the courts going back and admitting their mistake in letting their personal religion influence their legislation in a secular country.
 
Old 06-28-2011, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
306 posts, read 600,140 times
Reputation: 69
So, morality is only absolute in some instances but relative for everything else?
 
Old 06-28-2011, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Chicago
3,340 posts, read 8,694,161 times
Reputation: 1215
Calvinist, I continue to wait for you're answer as to how homosexuality is immoral. One that does not include "because the Bible says so" if you please.
 
Old 06-28-2011, 08:47 PM
 
816 posts, read 1,416,131 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
The bible condemns both. I'm just trying to establish what we should base our morals on.
Which bible? There are many bibles and many versions of the bible within a religion. The moment you base ANY government on ANY religious text you exclude all those that don't follow that religion. THAT is a very dangerous thing to do.
 
Old 06-28-2011, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
306 posts, read 600,140 times
Reputation: 69
A large part of why the institution of marriage exists is to bear and raise children. Only men and women can naturally procreate. Also, in a majority of cases, children are healthiest when they are raised by their biological parents. You don't get any of that through a homosexual marriage arrangement.

I think if you asked most Americans what the core definition of marriage is, that definition would still be a union between a man and a woman. The problem is that relativism has crept in, so it doesn't matter what other people do as long as it doesn't affect you.
 
Old 06-29-2011, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,921 posts, read 19,105,068 times
Reputation: 9155
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessep28 View Post
Also, in a majority of cases, children are healthiest when they are raised by their biological parents. You don't get any of that through a homosexual marriage arrangement.
Actually, just the opposite. Studies have shown that children raised by same sex parents are just as well adjusted as those raised by traditional parents.
 
Old 06-29-2011, 09:09 AM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,673,880 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by harshbarj View Post
Which bible? There are many bibles and many versions of the bible within a religion. The moment you base ANY government on ANY religious text you exclude all those that don't follow that religion. THAT is a very dangerous thing to do.
The canon that is accepted by the Christian church. Typically the Septuagint and the NT books.
 
Old 06-29-2011, 09:10 AM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,673,880 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raphael07 View Post
Calvinist, I continue to wait for you're answer as to how homosexuality is immoral. One that does not include "because the Bible says so" if you please.
Why hold me to a standard you can't hold to? You have no reason to suggest it isn't immoral--other than personal feeling.
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