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Old 06-29-2011, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
11,005 posts, read 10,048,797 times
Reputation: 5930

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Why hold me to a standard you can't hold to? You have no reason to suggest it isn't immoral--other than personal feeling.
Because just like in court, the burden of proof is one the party who is trying to make the case for something.

 
Old 06-29-2011, 02:41 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 3,189,898 times
Reputation: 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Because just like in court, the burden of proof is one the party who is trying to make the case for something.
That makes no sense. This isn't a court case. This is your opinion versus mine.

Honestly....this is a classic example of why I do think eventually all states will allow for it--you guys will continue to hammer on the issue year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year and eventually people will just be worn down.

It makes no difference whether or not it's moral or immoral, or it's reasonable to allow for same-gender "marriage" or not. You guys will continue to keep hammering on it because you simply cannot tolerate anyone not agreeing lockstep with you. Honestly, it's sad that bigots have to drive the agenda.
 
Old 06-29-2011, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
11,005 posts, read 10,048,797 times
Reputation: 5930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
That makes no sense. This isn't a court case. This is your opinion versus mine.
It makes perfect sense to anyone with the skills to actually debate something, but since that clearly isn't you, allow me to lay out a debate flowchart for you.

Statement/Opinion --> Fact/Rationale to support it --> then Counterpoint --> Fact/Rationale to support said counterpoint --> repeat.

Since you are the one making the claim that homosexuality is in fact immoral according to the bible, the burden is on you to prove that you are correct and so far you have failed completely at that. You don't make a claim and then assume a position of truth anymore than a DA could charge someone with a crime and then demand they be found guilty unless the defense could prove otherwise.

Quote:
Honestly....this is a classic example of why I do think eventually all states will allow for it--you guys will continue to hammer on the issue year after year
I, for one, make no apology for this fact. Just like any of the other civil rights cases fought for in America, it is a long and hard road to victory.

Quote:
It makes no difference whether or not it's moral or immoral
You're correct, in the biblical sense. I personally would not care if the bible flat out said that homosexuality is a sin or if Jesus himself descended from the sky and told me. We are a secular nation and do not base our laws off of any religion.

Quote:
or it's reasonable to allow for same-gender "marriage" or not. You guys will continue to keep hammering on it because you simply cannot tolerate anyone not agreeing lockstep with you. Honestly, it's sad that bigots have to drive the agenda.
Yes, that...not fighting for what we feel is right...is what it's all about. Good catch.
 
Old 06-29-2011, 08:52 PM
 
2,534 posts, read 1,067,629 times
Reputation: 1336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Why hold me to a standard you can't hold to? You have no reason to suggest it isn't immoral--other than personal feeling.
Immorality doesn't exist in a vacuum. Things are immoral because it is wrong to harm others.

Murder is immoral because you are unjustly depriving someone of their life.

Stealing is immoral because you are unjustly depriving someone of their property.

Assault is immoral because you are unjustly causing grevious injury.

Homosexuality is immoral because.....

Well, er, um...

I got nothing. Perhaps you can finish that sentence for me, but no cheating... No reference to theology. Kinda like I did above. Good luck, you're gonna need it!
 
Old 06-30-2011, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
305 posts, read 369,984 times
Reputation: 68
This thread has descended from commentary about a story where liberal Christian ministers made a declaration regarding same sex marriage to circular bickering rehashing the same arguments for/against same sex marriage. Maybe at this point we should all just agree to disagree.
 
Old 06-30-2011, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,330 posts, read 6,301,076 times
Reputation: 1159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Why hold me to a standard you can't hold to? You have no reason to suggest it isn't immoral--other than personal feeling.
Well, I also have the same bible you do, except mine is in the proper Greek and not in English. Because an English Bible, more often than not, muddles things like no other.

Second, you said it was our opinion versus yours. Well, we also have a fact that goes with our opinion: Gay people want to get married to other gay people. And when have opinions ever been superior to facts?
 
Old 06-30-2011, 08:50 AM
 
6,486 posts, read 3,189,898 times
Reputation: 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
Immorality doesn't exist in a vacuum. Things are immoral because it is wrong to harm others.

Murder is immoral because you are unjustly depriving someone of their life.
Why? What makes your opinion right?
Quote:
Stealing is immoral because you are unjustly depriving someone of their property.
Why? What makes your opinion right?
Quote:
Assault is immoral because you are unjustly causing grevious injury.
Why? What makes your opinion right?
Quote:
Homosexuality is immoral because.....

Well, er, um...

I got nothing. Perhaps you can finish that sentence for me, but no cheating... No reference to theology. Kinda like I did above. Good luck, you're gonna need it!
Should we really care if you can find a reason for homosexuality being immoral?
 
Old 06-30-2011, 09:58 AM
 
796 posts, read 746,848 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Why? What makes your opinion right?

Why? What makes your opinion right?

Why? What makes your opinion right?


Should we really care if you can find a reason for homosexuality being immoral?
And you have just gone and shown your NOT a moral person! If you need some ancient book and an invisible man to tell you whats right and what wrong I feel VERY sorry for you.
 
Old 06-30-2011, 10:12 AM
 
2,534 posts, read 1,067,629 times
Reputation: 1336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Why? What makes your opinion right?
So are you saying that you don't find unjustly depriving someone of their life, unjustly depriving someone of property, or unjustly causing grave harm to someone is immoral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Should we really care if you can find a reason for homosexuality being immoral?
You are the one making the case for homosexuality being immoral. I have repeatedly said that I find it not immoral, for I cannot think of a reason to label it as such. You have given us a reason, but your reason was based on a holy book that not all of us find credible.

Ergo, you've been asked to justify why homosexuality is immoral without referencing your holy book, but thus far you've been either unable, or at least unwilling to do so.
 
Old 06-30-2011, 11:42 AM
 
138 posts, read 131,504 times
Reputation: 107
Once again we see the people that understand that nebulous concept of "relativism" the least are the ones that ***** about it the most.

"But we will all marry turtles and desks and flagpoles and stuff if its all relative like that and theres no absolutes dictated by Invisible Santa!!!!!!!!omgz1"

Yeah.
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