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Old 07-06-2011, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Midtown Omaha
1,225 posts, read 1,813,068 times
Reputation: 546

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
The founding fathers never intended for that.
The reason this conversation hasn't progressed in weeks is because you refuse to accept the fact of the separation of church and state.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

From Article I

"no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

From Article VI of the Constitution.

This is undeniable proof that you are wrong Calvinist.

 
Old 07-06-2011, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,920 posts, read 19,105,068 times
Reputation: 9155
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjacobm View Post
The reason this conversation hasn't progressed in weeks is because you refuse to accept the fact of the separation of church and state.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

From Article I

"no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

From Article VI of the Constitution.

This is undeniable proof that you are wrong Calvinist.
You are making the mistake of trying to hold a serious conversation with this guy. We've already won this battle, so at this point you should be treating this as picking on the dullard for your own entertainment, like I did when I used his ignorance of DOMA to trap him into hypothetically legalizing gay marriage.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 12:25 PM
 
2,665 posts, read 2,176,068 times
Reputation: 1471
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjacobm View Post
Yet how many groups site their belief in a god to kill others as well? Seems like the unfaltering belief in a higher being isn't a model for a moral society either.
Humans change. They evolve. Mostly towards better things and more enlightenment.

I mean, think about it. Once it was considered immoral for a woman to show her ankle, and now we have thong bikinis! That's evolution of the highest order...
 
Old 07-06-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,920 posts, read 19,105,068 times
Reputation: 9155
Quote:
Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
Humans change. They evolve. Mostly towards better things and more enlightenment.

I mean, think about it. Once it was considered immoral for a woman to show her ankle, and now we have thong bikinis! That's evolution of the highest order...
God bless those women.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 12:56 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,673,880 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjacobm View Post
The reason this conversation hasn't progressed in weeks is because you refuse to accept the fact of the separation of church and state.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

From Article I

"no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

From Article VI of the Constitution.

This is undeniable proof that you are wrong Calvinist.
I'm not arguing that we should not live under a theocracy.

I am arguing though, that the founding fathers never intended for us to check our faith at the door when we vote, or serve in government. There is a difference between Congress making a law to declare a state religion and being influenced by religious values.

The fact that you can't understand that is the issue.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 01:07 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,673,880 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
Humans change. They evolve. Mostly towards better things and more enlightenment.

I mean, think about it. Once it was considered immoral for a woman to show her ankle, and now we have thong bikinis! That's evolution of the highest order...
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you have an ultimate standard without an ultimate source of morals.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Midtown Omaha
1,225 posts, read 1,813,068 times
Reputation: 546
You can be influenced by your religious values when you vote. And political members can be swayed by their religious values when they consider laws, it is part of their make up as humans. The problem comes that religion CANNOT be a reason to have a law.

You can use religion to create your morals, but you cannot use religion to make or change laws.

Lets say a gay marriage bill came to congress and someone disapproved of it's passing. That person has every right to be against the action because of his/her religious beliefs, but the moment he/she gives a religious reason as to why it shouldn't pass they have no credibility.

Everyone thinks a way for a reason be it religion or whatever. The difference is in the political system of America law makers cannot use religious reasons to approve of disprove things. That is unconstitutional.

That is why you have been asked time and time again to make an argument against same sex marriage without mentioning religion. Because what a religion says has zero power over the laws in this country. Religion my have power over some of the people, but not the laws.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 01:35 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,673,880 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjacobm View Post
You can be influenced by your religious values when you vote. And political members can be swayed by their religious values when they consider laws, it is part of their make up as humans. The problem comes that religion CANNOT be a reason to have a law.

You can use religion to create your morals, but you cannot use religion to make or change laws.

Lets say a gay marriage bill came to congress and someone disapproved of it's passing. That person has every right to be against the action because of his/her religious beliefs, but the moment he/she gives a religious reason as to why it shouldn't pass they have no credibility.
If I disagree with something solely on the grounds that I think it's immoral, I don't see an issue.
Quote:
Everyone thinks a way for a reason be it religion or whatever. The difference is in the political system of America law makers cannot use religious reasons to approve of disprove things. That is unconstitutional.
On the other hand, a lawmaker should not go out of their way to be secular.
Quote:
That is why you have been asked time and time again to make an argument against same sex marriage without mentioning religion. Because what a religion says has zero power over the laws in this country. Religion my have power over some of the people, but not the laws.
I don't have to. I am a human being, and I have my morals and my standards. Where those come from are irrelevant.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 01:39 PM
 
2,665 posts, read 2,176,068 times
Reputation: 1471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you have an ultimate standard without an ultimate source of morals.
I never said there is, or will be, an ultimate standard. I gave you my standard, which arguably, if universally followed, would create a very nice society. That said, it's probably not perfect and I'm sure it could be refined. We as a society and we as a species are constantly working on refining it. Hundreds, thousands of years from now it will look very different.

At the risk of being repetitive, if you need a deity to order you to not murder to know that murdering someone is immoral, you are lacking empathy and wisdom.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 01:41 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,673,880 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
I never said there is, or will be, an ultimate standard. I gave you my standard, which arguably, if universally followed, would create a very nice society. That said, it's probably not perfect and I'm sure it could be refined. We as a society and we as a species are constantly working on refining it. Hundreds, thousands of years from now it will look very different.

At the risk of being repetitive, if you need a deity to order you to not murder to know that murdering someone is immoral, you are lacking empathy and wisdom.
So, then...what it comes down to is that you have no basis for telling me or anyone how to live. There is no reason to really believe your value system is better than anyone else's.
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