[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

So something is right because it's legal?

Not necessarily, but also irrelevant. In a free society, by default ALL things are permitted except those that can be shown to be necessary to ban for society to function properly. The government has a duty to show what the compelling state interest is when it tries to ban something, and if it is not capable of doing so, the proposed (or enacted) ban is deemed not legal.

"Because god said so" is NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!! You may wish it were, you may want it to be so, but unless and until the constitution is scrapped or highly modified, that will never be an allowable reason to ban any action in this country.

We have gone around and around, in some cases making the same points over and over again. Unless you're prepared to defend denying same sex couples the right to marry on some kind of secular, non-theological argument, I'm done with this thread.

It's an academic argument anyway, it's simply a matter of time. People with dinosaur ideas such as yours will be extinct soon

[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

While it's not a religious nation, our founders certainly expected that we'd have a right to have religion present, and have it as a part of us.

Present is one thing, making religious law and customs into societal laws is quite another.

[Calvinist]

Originally Posted by DentalFloss

Present is one thing, making religious law and customs into societal laws is quite another.

If it's the will of the people then no, it isn't.

But honestly....we're getting way off topic. The OP trumpeted the 100 clergy supporting gay marriage as some sort of a good thing. You might agree...I don't. I find sad the watering down of religion to meet the standards of society.

[marmom]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

If it's the will of the people then no, it isn't.

But is not allowing gay marriage the will of the people? It's not my will. It's clearly not the will of several who have posted on this thread. Yes it is your will, but there are more people than you. Also, to use your argument, it was the "will of the people" in some societies to euthanize or cannibalize - so by your argument that the will of the people should dictate law, then pretty much anything goes.

[Calvinist]

Originally Posted by marmom

But is not allowing gay marriage the will of the people? It's not my will. It's clearly not the will of several who have posted on this thread. Yes it is your will, but there are more people than you.

It's overwhelmingly the will of the American People.

Also, to use your argument, it was the "will of the people" in some societies to euthanize or cannibalize - so by your argument that the will of the people should dictate law, then pretty much anything goes.

Of course not. There is a difference between not being able to "marry" someone of the same gender and choosing to kill gramma or eat the neighbor.

[marmom]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

It's overwhelmingly the will of the American People.

How do you know this? Can you prove this? Or is it yet again you projecting your opinion onto others?

Originally Posted by Calvinist

Of course not. There is a difference between not being able to "marry" someone of the same gender and choosing to kill gramma or eat the neighbor.

So according to you, in some cases the will of the people can dictate law, but not in others. Where is the delineation and who gets to decide? Also, in previous posts, you have indeed drawn a parallel between murder and gay marriage (stating they are both immoral). Yet when looking at it from the flip side as you did in the above quote, you say they are different. So which is it?

[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

It's overwhelmingly the will of the American People.

Actually, it's not. In 2011, for the first time, over 50% of the population wants gay marriage legalized. That's up, by the way, from only 23% in 1996. If that trend continues, and if anything, it'll probably accelerate, by 2025 it'll be virtually 100%.

Welcome to a better world.

In case you don't believe me, here's the data, direct from Gallup:

Do you think marriages between same-sex couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?



Should Should not No
be valid be valid opinion
% % %
2011 May 5-8 53 45 3
2010 May 3-6 44 53 3
2009 May 7-10 40 57 3
2008 May 8-11 40 56 4
2007 May 10-13 46 53 1
2006 May 8-11 42 56 2
2006 May 8-11 39 58 4
2005 Aug 22-25 37 59 4
2004 May 2-4 42 55 3
1999 Feb 8-9 35 62 3
1996 Mar 15-17 27 68 5

[Calvinist]

Originally Posted by marmom

How do you know this? Can you prove this? Or is it yet again you projecting your opinion onto others?



So according to you, in some cases the will of the people can dictate law, but not in others. Where is the delineation and who gets to decide?

When we start talking about removing the rights of people, or hurting others, it's a line to draw. Currently men can't marry men, so it's not an issue if we leave it as such.

Also, in previous posts, you have indeed drawn a parallel between murder and gay marriage (stating they are both immoral). Yet when looking at it from the flip side as you did in the above quote, you say they are different. So which is it?

Murder and homosexuality are both immoral. That's not the only reason to disallow same-gender marriage.

[Calvinist]

Originally Posted by DentalFloss

Actually, it's not. In 2011, for the first time, over 50% of the population wants gay marriage legalized. That's up, by the way, from only 23% in 1996. If that trend continues, and if anything, it'll probably accelerate, by 2025 it'll be virtually 100%.

Welcome to a better world.

In case you don't believe me, here's the data, direct from Gallup:

Do you think marriages between same-sex couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?



Should Should not No
be valid be valid opinion
% % %
2011 May 5-8 53 45 3
2010 May 3-6 44 53 3
2009 May 7-10 40 57 3
2008 May 8-11 40 56 4
2007 May 10-13 46 53 1
2006 May 8-11 42 56 2
2006 May 8-11 39 58 4
2005 Aug 22-25 37 59 4
2004 May 2-4 42 55 3
1999 Feb 8-9 35 62 3
1996 Mar 15-17 27 68 5

I'd love to see a breakdown by state. I think those stats are skewed by a few big liberal states. In cases like Prop 8 in California, the people were definitely against same-gender marriage.

[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

I'd love to see a breakdown by state. I think those stats are skewed by a few big liberal states. In cases like Prop 8 in California, the people were definitely against same-gender marriage.

I don't have data by state, if you want to see if you can find it knock yourself out. The trend is the point, in 15 years support for the idea has more than doubled, and is now over 50%. That's likely within the margin of error, but I imagine in 15 more years, it'll be 75%+.

Older folks who will die within that timeframe are overwhelmingly opposed, and they're being replaced by younger folks who are overwhelmingly in favor. FWIW, in 1996, had I been polled I would have said opposed. I changed my opinion after it sunk into my head that it had no effect on me, therefore it was really none of my business.