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Old 09-08-2011, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
10,576 posts, read 8,858,054 times
Reputation: 5602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
I would not suggest that a gay person is vile or evil simply by existing.
So how would you suggest they are vile and evil? I ask this because your statement implies that you feel this way.

Quote:
But their relationships are not equivalent to hetero marriage. I'm sorry...that's just the way it is.
That's a matter of opinion, and as I pointed out previously, that opinion is irrelevant in policy making discussions.

 
Old 09-08-2011, 04:26 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 2,843,843 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
So how would you suggest they are vile and evil? I ask this because your statement implies that you feel this way.
If they are doing what is vile and evil? Unlike many on this board I think we can separate our actions from the person.
Quote:
That's a matter of opinion, and as I pointed out previously, that opinion is irrelevant in policy making discussions.
You haven't made that point. That is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Your opinion isn't the standard for policy, either.
 
Old 09-08-2011, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
10,576 posts, read 8,858,054 times
Reputation: 5602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
If they are doing what is vile and evil? Unlike many on this board I think we can separate our actions from the person.
So then you're vile and evil when you eat pork or wear clothes made of different fabrics.

Quote:
You haven't made that point. That is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Your opinion isn't the standard for policy, either.
Actually, that's the legal standard for applying the Equal Protection Clause, not my opinion. They're called the Standards of Review and there are several levels (Strict, Intermediate, Rational) of tests that can be applied depending on the law in question, but all of them are very clear that when not providing equal rights that there must be a justifiable reason for doing so, and religious/moral doctrine has NEVER been allowed as justifiable reason.

And you are correct that my opinion does not make policy, but what you fail to realize is that my side can make a convincing argument based on legal principles as well as moral opinions. Your side can only do the later, and that is what will ultimately be the downfall of gay marriage bans nationwide.
 
Old 09-08-2011, 04:51 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 2,843,843 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
So then you're vile and evil when you eat pork or wear clothes made of different fabrics.
You may hold that view. I don't care.
Quote:
Actually, that's the legal standard for applying the Equal Protection Clause, not my opinion. They're called the Standards of Review and there are several levels (Strict, Intermediate, Rational) of tests that can be applied depending on the law in question, but all of them are very clear that when not providing equal rights that there must be a justifiable reason for doing so, and religious/moral doctrine has NEVER been allowed as justifiable reason.
I'm not basing my view on religious doctrine. But are you willing to treat the religious fairly? You seem to have an axe to grind with anyone that is relgious.
Quote:
And you are correct that my opinion does not make policy, but what you fail to realize is that my side can make a convincing argument based on legal principles as well as moral opinions. Your side can only do the later, and that is what will ultimately be the downfall of gay marriage bans nationwide.
And my side can make a convincing argument based on legal principles as well as moral opinions, as well. The fact that you're closed-minded enough to not see that is not my problem. Let me know if you want to talk from logic instead of emotion.

Last edited by Calvinist; 09-08-2011 at 05:07 PM..
 
Old 09-08-2011, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
10,576 posts, read 8,858,054 times
Reputation: 5602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
You may hold that view. I don't care.
That's what Old Testament Christian, Jewish and Islamic religious doctrine preaches. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the doctrine you which to apply.

Quote:
I'm not basing my view on religious doctrine.
Yes you are, and you've already admitted that point for all intents and purposes.

Quote:
But are you willing to treat the religious fairly? You seem to have an axe to grind with anyone that is relgious.
Well let's talk about it. Give me an example of a way that the religious are being treating unfairly.

Quote:
And my side can make a convincing argument based on legal principles as well as moral opinions, as well. The fact that you're closed-minded enough to not see that is not my problem. Let me know if you want to talk from logic instead of emotion.
No you can't. Your side has had multiple chances to argue it in a court of law and your side has repeatedly fallen short.
 
Old 09-08-2011, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Northeast NE
696 posts, read 845,121 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
as I pointed out previously, that opinion is irrelevant in policy making discussions.
Actually "popular" opinion is the basis for most policy decisions.

If the elected officials don't go with the popular opinion, they usually don't get reelected.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 01:12 AM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
10,576 posts, read 8,858,054 times
Reputation: 5602
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMe_T3K View Post
Actually "popular" opinion is the basis for most policy decisions.

If the elected officials don't go with the popular opinion, they usually don't get reelected.
Laws passed by legislation are subject to judicial review though, which is what I was referring to.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 07:49 AM
 
6,486 posts, read 2,843,843 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
That's what Old Testament Christian, Jewish and Islamic religious doctrine preaches. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the doctrine you which to apply.

Yes you are, and you've already admitted that point for all intents and purposes.

Well let's talk about it. Give me an example of a way that the religious are being treating unfairly.

No you can't. Your side has had multiple chances to argue it in a court of law and your side has repeatedly fallen short.
* sigh *

What does it matter what we actually say? You're obviously much to smart for us to even begin to argue with.

I have repeatedly said that I don't think it's good policy to let a very small minority govern how we do things. You instead say it's because I'm a religious bigot. You tend to do that a lot. You twist stuff around and change it to an argument you think you can actually go against, rather than actual, real logical discussion of what I actually said.

This is why we are, frankly, sick of the argument. You closed-minded types don't pay attention to what we say, and don't care. You call us names and accuse us of being racist, bigoted, or whatever word of the month is. Honestly....I feel sorry for you. I don't know why you're such a bitter person.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:15 AM
 
2,534 posts, read 918,083 times
Reputation: 1331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
You closed-minded types don't pay attention to what we say, and don't care. You call us names and accuse us of being racist, bigoted, or whatever word of the month is. Honestly....I feel sorry for you. I don't know why you're such a bitter person.
We're the closed minded Ones??? Bwhahahaha.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:28 AM
 
6,486 posts, read 2,843,843 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
We're the closed minded Ones??? Bwhahahaha.
I'm not the one whining about not getting special benefits and playing thought-control on anyone that disagrees. We routinely get told we're bigots if we dare to suggest homosexuality is a bad thing.
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