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Old 09-15-2011, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL SouthWest Suburbs
3,528 posts, read 2,809,236 times
Reputation: 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
You've almost got it. I would not suggest that a gay person is vile or evil simply by existing. I have had gay friends in the past that I got along with just fine. But their relationships are not equivalent to hetero marriage. I'm sorry...that's just the way it is.
First of all I am a straight married male mid 40's
This may be your point of view , but I totally disagree with your comment.

How can you possibly think feelings for somone else could or should be based on gender.

I certainly like to think the lord who I worship loves us all whether we are male or female.

Simply disagree with your comment , not looking to argue.

 
Old 09-15-2011, 01:59 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 3,036,832 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnyandcloudydays View Post
First of all I am a straight married male mid 40's
This may be your point of view , but I totally disagree with your comment.

How can you possibly think feelings for somone else could or should be based on gender.

I certainly like to think the lord who I worship loves us all whether we are male or female.

Simply disagree with your comment , not looking to argue.
You've got that right to disagree. You asked how I could think feelings for someone are based on gender? I've never said that. I just don't think 2 men and 2 women have the same thing a man and woman do.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
10,921 posts, read 9,548,534 times
Reputation: 5808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Honestly...I don't really care if homosexuality is shown to be genetic. It doesn't change a thing. The behavior is what's immoral....not the temptation or urges one gets. But it is fun to tweak the folks that base their entire argument on an unproven idea that it MUST be genetic...but we haven't seen any actual scientific reason to believe it.
You must have missed this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Ok.

Here is the American Psychological Associations stance on the matter.

Editorial points out the overwhelming opinion of the medical and scientific communities that sexual orientation is not a choice.

Letters To the Editor

Study shows gay men react to male pheromones in much the same way as heterosexual women.

"Sexy" Smells Different for Gay, Straight Men, Study Says

And a couple studies showing possible genetic link...

A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation

SpringerLink - Human Genetics, Volume 118, Number 6

For some more anecdotal evidence, why don't you tell us about the point in your life when you made the conscious decision to ignore your attraction to men. I'd love to hear that story.
It is true that we don't know for absolute certain whether it's genetic or not. There are still other hypothesis out there, but most of the evidence points to the genes. Regardless of whether it's genetic or psychological, we know for a fact that it is NOT a choice.

Interesting though that you've admitted that you believe our supposedly merciful could would condemn someone to hell for the way he made them.

Quote:
But that's not really the point, as I've routinely pointed out on this board, there are plenty of reasons to deny same-gender "marriage" that are not religious in nature.
You've given exactly one (not wanting to legislate for the minority) which was promptly and easily refuted.

Got any others?
 
Old 09-15-2011, 02:56 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 3,036,832 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
You must have missed this post.



It is true that we don't know for absolute certain whether it's genetic or not. There are still other hypothesis out there, but most of the evidence points to the genes. Regardless of whether it's genetic or psychological, we know for a fact that it is NOT a choice.

Interesting though that you've admitted that you believe our supposedly merciful could would condemn someone to hell for the way he made them.
God would condemn any hetero male for fornication, lust, or adultery. What makes a gay man any different?
Quote:
You've given exactly one (not wanting to legislate for the minority) which was promptly and easily refuted.

Got any others?
Where? I haven't seen anyone that actually refuted my point that we all have equal rights and shouldn't make special rights based off of the sexual choice of a very small minority.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
10,921 posts, read 9,548,534 times
Reputation: 5808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
God would condemn any hetero male for fornication, lust, or adultery. What makes a gay man any different.
And as Rev. Dr. Walter Wink pointed out, this logic fails quite hard.

Quote:
If we insist on placing ourselves under the old law, as Paul reminds us, we are obligated to keep every commandment of the law (Gal. 5:3). But if Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4), if we have been discharged from the law to serve, not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit (Rom. 7:6), then all of these biblical sexual mores come under the authority of the Spirit. We cannot then take even what Paul himself says as a new Law. Christians reserve the right to pick and choose which sexual mores they will observe, though they seldom admit to doing just that. And this is as true of evangelicals and fundamentalists as it is of liberals and mainliners.
Of course, the real funny part is that you brought up fornication here in a debate about whether to allow gay marriage. You not only believe (although incorrectly) that gays will be condemned for the way God made them, but then you argue to prevent them from entering into the institution you believed to be ordained by God as the only acceptable place for sexual activity to occur. You're trying to stack the deck against them and effectively put them in a situation where they are sinning no matter what they do.

Not very Christian like if you ask me.

Quote:
Where? I haven't seen anyone that actually refuted my point that we all have equal rights and shouldn't make special rights based off of the sexual choice of a very small minority.
Actually, I refuted the equal rights point here, in post 535.

Quote:
And here is where you're intentionally being obtuse to try making a point. If your argument is valid, these cases would not be getting heard in court. They'd be getting dismissed on the basis of demurrer, or otherwise known as "failure to state a claim on which relief can be granted".

The cases are being heard, so by proxy the courts agree that rights are being denied and are allowing the parties to argue the case for or against this. To my knowledge, no one has even attempted to use your defense in court, and for good reason. If you know of a case where this argument has been used, by all means let me know.
And legislating to the minority here, in post 512.

Quote:
I agree, in theory, but you are missing the bigger picture. Our government was setup with checks and balances, and part of that is making sure that the rights of the minority is not trampled by a legislative majority. This goes back to the judicial review I talked about earlier. The courts are striking down the legislation because there is no valid legal argument for them and moral arguments are not considered.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 04:18 PM
 
795 posts, read 703,187 times
Reputation: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Where? I haven't seen anyone that actually refuted my point that we all have equal rights and shouldn't make special rights based off of the sexual choice of a very small minority.
Who says it a "special right"? Was it a special right to allow black people or women the right to vote? Also again you keep saying it's a choice when it has basically been proven it's not a choice.

I just don't get why you are so against this idea? If two men or 2 women marry how could that have any effect on you and your marriage? You also keep saying it's a sin, SO? if they want to live in sin, as you think they are, then who are you to say they can't? If it makes them happy and has no negative impact on the community as a whole then why not?

Now perhaps I should clarify something, I am not asking the churches to accept gay marriage. I am however asking the government to accept it. Now if a church wants to get with the times and accept it, as some already have, then all the better.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 04:57 PM
 
Location: the Beaver State
6,477 posts, read 5,955,263 times
Reputation: 3287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Your point? skin color <> sexual choice.

You tell me how we identify gay people and make sure they can marry.
My point was that the same arguments against Interracial Marriage are the same arguments against Gay Marriage.

Interracial Marriage has been legal since 1967 and the world didn't end in a ball of flame with the rising of the Anti-Christ. Nor do most people still believe that Interracial couples are destined for Hell.

It's easy to identify gay people. They're the ones sitting outside the hospital crying because their same sex partner of 30 year is inside dying from cancer. They're outside because the Hospital has a strict "family only" policy. Since the State kept them from getting married, the Hospital has to eject them from the soon to be deceased's room to be in compliance with Policy as there is no legal proof that they're related.

Even though they have a shared mortgage, made mad passionate love every night for 20 years, encouraged each other in their careers, cared for each other when they were sick, possibly sent a child or three off to college, cooked dinner together, held each other tight on 9/11, and held hands while watching a sunset on that magical trip to Europe.

But they can't be together when one is in the Hospital and needs the love of their life the most. That is why Gay Marriage should be legalized. It's the (Biblically) COMPASSIONATE thing to do.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 05:28 PM
 
795 posts, read 703,187 times
Reputation: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamellr View Post
made mad passionate love every night for 20 years,
I could have done without that mental imagery.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 05:53 PM
 
2,534 posts, read 1,001,908 times
Reputation: 1331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
God would condemn any hetero male for fornication, lust, or adultery.
Your god is very different from mine. Mine is light and love. Your's is a petty tyrant dictator.

I'll take light and love any day of the week.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa
172 posts, read 189,343 times
Reputation: 148
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