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Old 06-16-2011, 02:32 PM
 
Location: West-ish, wishing for Benson-ish
54 posts, read 128,082 times
Reputation: 33

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
You would do well to learn the meaning of context.
Explain the context of the church becoming involved with politics instead of just sticking to the scripture. Jesus was huge on community and fellowship and witnessing in order to bring others into the church.

Also explain why the church and individuals pick and choose what points in the bible they take a stand on.

I feel my criticism of the Catholic church is spot on. No need for context there.

 
Old 06-16-2011, 03:42 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,669,274 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senrab+Omaha=MissingChica View Post
Explain the context of the church becoming involved with politics instead of just sticking to the scripture. Jesus was huge on community and fellowship and witnessing in order to bring others into the church.
Those are not mutually exclusive.
Quote:
Also explain why the church and individuals pick and choose what points in the bible they take a stand on.
Depends on context. As I said, context is a good thing to learn.
Quote:
I feel my criticism of the Catholic church is spot on. No need for context there.
I certainly won't defend them on their failings there.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Senrab+Omaha=MissingChica View Post
How is the OT not relavent. The past should be relavent so you don't repeat the mistakes of it. Also that was your Christ's religion, as I don't believe he worshiped himself. It is part of your religion, and should not be ignored completely.
Romans 10:4 states "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes". His death and resurrection fulfilled the Law. Hebrews calls him a priest in the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek was a priest in Genesis that Abraham paid a tithe to--prior to the Law being put into effect with Moses. So Melchizedek's priesthood supercedes that of the Law, or the OT commandments you quoted.


Quote:
Ignore the first half of a history book, the 2nd half would make no sense.
Absolutely, I agree with you. As I demonstrated above, I have a decent grasp on it. Without it, you have no understanding of what Christ did.
Quote:
Also how much of the NT scripture was dedicated to anti-homosexual rules. Is it in proportion to how the churches use it now to politicize? I honestly don't know and am curious.
I know Romans, Chapter 1 condemns it. I also know that throughout the NT you can find condemnation for extramarital sex. The Bible only recognizes male/female marriage. So any sexual activity outside of marriage is condemned as a result.
 
Old 06-16-2011, 04:03 PM
 
1,054 posts, read 1,827,845 times
Reputation: 699
Romans 1:26 - 1:27 talks about straight people abondoning their natural inclination towards heterosexuality. It doesn't reference homosexuals at all.
 
Old 06-16-2011, 04:16 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,669,274 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omahahonors View Post
Romans 1:26 - 1:27 talks about straight people abondoning their natural inclination towards heterosexuality. It doesn't reference homosexuals at all.
It condemns the behavior. It says nothing of "orientation".
 
Old 06-16-2011, 04:34 PM
 
Location: West-ish, wishing for Benson-ish
54 posts, read 128,082 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Those are not mutually exclusive.

Depends on context. As I said, context is a good thing to learn.
I understand what you are saying about context, but shouldn't you keep your religious based criticisms in context?

G/L/T community is highly educated, not likely to commit a crime (violent or otherwise), usually active in the community, adopt children at a higher rate than their pro-life counterparts, generally have a high median income, and great fashion sense to boot. j/k

I just don't understand how this is such a huge issue in the US in 2011. As mentioned before, there was a time not too long ago where a majority of the churches in this town might not have proceeded over my wife and myself's wedding (interracial couple), so I take your opinion with grains of salt.

Would you not have been in the same group that would have disagreed with my wife and myself getting married? There are many misinteritations on this also in the Bible which people take as an absolute proof.
 
Old 06-16-2011, 04:45 PM
 
1,054 posts, read 1,827,845 times
Reputation: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
It condemns the behavior. It says nothing of "orientation".
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

He is talking about people that have previously been engaged with people of the opposite sex.

Furthermore Romans 1 is concerned with "Paul's vigorous denunciation of idolatrous religious worship and rituals.

Verses 21-23: The people had once been Christians. But they had fallen away from the faith, and returned to Paganism. They made images of Pagan gods in the form of men, birds, animals and reptiles for their religious rituals. The latter were probably held in Pagan temples.

Verse 24: Next, they engaged in heterosexual orgies with each other as part of these pagan fertility rituals.

Verse 25: Next, they worshipped the images that they had made, instead of God, the creator. Paul is specifically condemning idol worship here.

Verse 26: Because of these forbidden practices, God intervened in these fertility sex-rituals and changed the people's behavior so that women started to engage in sexual activities with other women.

Verse 27: describes how God had the men also engage in same-sex ritual activities. They (presumably both the men and women) were then punished in some way for their error.

Verse 28: Again, because they did not acknowledge God, then He "gave them up" to many different unethical activities and attitudes: evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, etc.
 
Old 06-16-2011, 04:45 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,669,274 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senrab+Omaha=MissingChica View Post
I understand what you are saying about context, but shouldn't you keep your religious based criticisms in context?

G/L/T community is highly educated, not likely to commit a crime (violent or otherwise), usually active in the community, adopt children at a higher rate than their pro-life counterparts, generally have a high median income, and great fashion sense to boot. j/k

I just don't understand how this is such a huge issue in the US in 2011. As mentioned before, there was a time not too long ago where a majority of the churches in this town might not have proceeded over my wife and myself's wedding (interracial couple), so I take your opinion with grains of salt.
What does that have to do with whether or not something is moral or if it should be legal?
Quote:
Would you not have been in the same group that would have disagreed with my wife and myself getting married? There are many misinteritations on this also in the Bible which people take as an absolute proof.
I hope I wouldn't have disagreed with your marriage. I once dated a black girl in my younger days. I also place more emphasis now on my daughter someday marrying a godly man--whether he is black, white, asian, or whatever. I honestly don't care. The Bible does not suggest such a relationship is wrong.
 
Old 06-16-2011, 05:04 PM
 
Location: West-ish, wishing for Benson-ish
54 posts, read 128,082 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
What does that have to do with whether or not something is moral or if it should be legal?
Because the Bible in actual/provable terms is full of inconsistancies, historical inaccuracies, sexism, bigotry, vengence, and prophecies which have been mistranslated. As a non-believer, why should I agree with your interitation of the bible. That has no basis on whether or not it's legal.

Morality is relative, and up to the individual. I feel I have solid moral values, but do not believe/feel the need for a church *edit* to tell me what they should be. Religion should not dictate society, and law should not keep rights away from human beings based on opinions of mis-translated scrolls.

Last edited by Senrab+Omaha=MissingChica; 06-16-2011 at 05:08 PM.. Reason: I am an idiot :)
 
Old 06-16-2011, 05:06 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 5,669,274 times
Reputation: 1272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senrab+Omaha=MissingChica View Post
Because the Bible in actual/provable terms is full of inconsistancies, historical inaccuracies, sexism, bigotry, vengence, and prophecies which have been mistranslated.
Can you give me an example?
Quote:

As a non-believer, why should I agree with your interitation of the bible. That has no basis on whether or not it's legal.

Morality is relative, and up to the individual. I feel I have solid moral values, but do not believe/feel the need for a church.
I guarantee I can name something that you would consider to be evil under any circumstance.
 
Old 06-16-2011, 05:53 PM
 
1,054 posts, read 1,827,845 times
Reputation: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Can you give me an example?


I guarantee I can name something that you would consider to be evil under any circumstance.
We all know that murder without conditions (like self-defense) is an absolute. Cheating on your spouse, without her approval and without conditions, (like a gun to your head) is an absolute evil. Relative evil is cheating on your spouse with her approval. On one hand you are not hurting anybody at all, but on another you are breaking what some view as a religious commandment. Here, there is a conflict of morals that nobody has a right to define for another person. This relative right versus wrong is between a person and their creator, but not one for a government to make as it is an adult decision to make.

What he is talking about is how some people believe they know, in pure absolutes, all that is right and wrong. This would mean they are the authority of right and wrong which means we all should live under this person's tyranny. This form of thinking in anti-american and anti-freedom.

American living is a person that lives within their own state of nature without any kind of government interference. The only time a government should intervene is in a conflict between two people in their own state of nature and also to secure the rights of a whole.

America would be a monarchy or communistic form of government if a church, a group of people or majority through votes were allowed to define right and wrong outside of actual conflicts. Our founders wrote the constitution with this philosphy as to get away from the tyranny of english nobles and the church of england. Most of the founders believed in christianity, but they believed it had no part in government legislation.

In Federalist paper no.54, james madison states that we would not need government if men were angels. And a set of checks and balances needed to be set as the government would not be run by angels. If any part of the three branches gained power in another brance, tyranny was more than just a probability. The same goes with using a religious reference to define right and wrong. If we use one religious reference, then we will have a tryannical government like england with the church of england.

We all know what a conflict is and it is a clash between two different people in their own state of nature. No two people will be the same, ever. We should never tell people how to live within their own state. We can only resolve issues that pertain to one person invading the rights, liberty and justice of another.
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