[Stacy From Cali]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

As for your question of when life begins? The moment of conception is when it begins. Do you have a better answer?

Yes I do. Life begins with the advent of brain activity (much like death is determined with its cessation) which can first be monitored in the fourth month. This is why it is usually illegal to receive an abortion after the first trimester.

[kdbrich]

There is no question about when human life begins.

Check the widely used medical textbook “The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998,” states at page 2 that "The intricate processes by which a baby develops from a single cell are miraculous .... This cell [the zygote] results from the union of an oocyte [egg] and sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being ...." At page 18 this theme is repeated: "Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original] ...."

Judge Michael J. Noonan ruled as follows in a New Jersey case based on a man's efforts to save his unborn child from being aborted: "…based upon the undisputed medical testimony by arguably the foremost authority in genetics in the world, I found that human life begins as conception; and that Roe vs. Wade permits a legal execution of that human being."

(MUNICIPAL COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MORRIS COUNTY CRIMINAL ACTION DOCKET NO. C1771, ET SEQ. STATE OF NEW JERSEY V. ALEXANDER LOCE, et als. DEFENDANTS APRIL 29, 1991 HONORABLE MICHAEL J. NOONAN)

Dr. Jerome Lejeune, "Father of Modern Genetics" and discoverer of the cause of Down's Syndrome, stated, "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion . . . it is plain experimental evidence."
Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, stated, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."




--- You can choose to accept a different time frame than medical doctors and judges. Your choice. Personally, I side with the accepted medical definition of life.

[Stacy From Cali]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

There is no question about when human life begins.

Check the widely used medical textbook “The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998,” states at page 2 that "The intricate processes by which a baby develops from a single cell are miraculous .... This cell [the zygote] results from the union of an oocyte [egg] and sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being ...." At page 18 this theme is repeated: "Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original] ...."

Judge Michael J. Noonan ruled as follows in a New Jersey case based on a man's efforts to save his unborn child from being aborted: "…based upon the undisputed medical testimony by arguably the foremost authority in genetics in the world, I found that human life begins as conception; and that Roe vs. Wade permits a legal execution of that human being."

(MUNICIPAL COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MORRIS COUNTY CRIMINAL ACTION DOCKET NO. C1771, ET SEQ. STATE OF NEW JERSEY V. ALEXANDER LOCE, et als. DEFENDANTS APRIL 29, 1991 HONORABLE MICHAEL J. NOONAN)

Dr. Jerome Lejeune, "Father of Modern Genetics" and discoverer of the cause of Down's Syndrome, stated, "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion . . . it is plain experimental evidence."
Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, stated, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."




--- You can choose to accept a different time frame than medical doctors and judges. Your choice. Personally, I side with the accepted medical definition of life.

In my mind there is a difference between "life" and "person". To me the abortion debate is centered around if and at what point a fetus should have personhood...or legal rights. The most logical answer to me lies with consciousness (brain activity) not life. As a society we do not value life because we are surrounded by it. Bacteria are alive, as are cockroaches and scrub grass. So its not life, per se, but human conciousness we (supposively) value.

So you're right, I do not consider an embryo without a brain to be a real person, much like I would not consider ann adult with vital signs but no brain activity to be a real person. In both cases they are certainly showing signs of life, but lacking conciousness they have lessened protection under the law.

And its not like I advocate women to go out and abort indiscriminately, but until an embryo shows these important vital signs the rights of the mother are paramount.

As a woman I see taking these rights away as equivalent to subjecting women to reproductive slavery.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by Todd4

Of course I've seen statistics. Do you think that nobody keeps track of this stuff ? It is a regulated medical procedure. (it will be in a back alley if some people have their way)

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States


Are you so morally superior that you can choose what other women do with their body whatever their reason ?

Abortion is ugly and people need to use contraception. But how are you educated on that or go to Planned Parenthood for pills when Palin and other republicans want to slash funding to sex-ed programs and Planned Parenthood ?

re-read it: they are talking about Induced Abortions but also miscarriages which is a form of abortion....

I do not think I am superior to anyone, this does not mean I have to accept abortion on demand..You have a right to your beliefs even if I think they are slanted, I have a right to mine. At conception a heart start beating, if that isn't life what is?? I will also ask you the question, If you believe in abortion how do you feel about capital purnishment? I think I know the answer, it is ok to take a babys life but not the life of a murderer??? Am I right?

Nita

[Stacy From Cali]

Originally Posted by nmnita

I do not think I am superior to anyone, this does not mean I have to accept abortion on demand..

Um, actually this does show that you believe your mandate to be superior, because your lack of acceptance of abortion means that you want to take away people's right to have one.

[Todd4]

Originally Posted by nmnita

re-read it: they are talking about Induced Abortions but also miscarriages which is a form of abortion....

I do not think I am superior to anyone, this does not mean I have to accept abortion on demand..You have a right to your beliefs even if I think they are slanted, I have a right to mine. At conception a heart start beating, if that isn't life what is?? I will also ask you the question, If you believe in abortion how do you feel about capital purnishment? I think I know the answer, it is ok to take a babys life but not the life of a murderer??? Am I right?

Nita

No ma'am. I believe that capital punishment should be within the first year to use it as the deterrent to crime that it was intended to be.

I also believe in Dr. assisted suicide if a patient wants to die.

I believe until we stop acting like consuming machines, we probably need less people, not more.

You sure make alot of stupid assumptions don't you ?

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by Stacy From Cali

Um, actually this does show that you believe your mandate to be superior, because your lack of acceptance of abortion means that you want to take away people's right to have one.

Wow, you're intolerant.


Back to your point though--we'll have to disagree about when the baby becomes a baby. Bottom line though, is that the vast majority of abortions in this country are for women that had a choice long before the time of the abortion came. If they'd have taken measures ahead of time it wouldn't have been an issue.

[Stacy From Cali]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

Wow, you're intolerant.


Back to your point though--we'll have to disagree about when the baby becomes a baby. Bottom line though, is that the vast majority of abortions in this country are for women that had a choice long before the time of the abortion came. If they'd have taken measures ahead of time it wouldn't have been an issue.

If the current administration was not so ignorant as to focus on abstence only then these women would probably be more educated as to what measures they could/should take.

I co-taught a sex ed class once and we were told that we were not supposed to teach about birth control...what sillyness.

Anyways, the best place to get free birth control is Planned Parenthood...just so ya know.

How am I intolerant? I am just pointing out that nmnita committed a logical fallacy.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by Stacy From Cali

If the current administration was not so ignorant as to focus on abstence only then these women would probably be more educated as to what measures they could/should take.

I co-taught a sex ed class once and we were told that we were not supposed to teach about birth control...what sillyness.

Anyways, the best place to get free birth control is Planned Parenthood...just so ya know.

How am I intolerant? I am just pointing out that nmnita committed a logical fallacy.

We're called intolerant when we point out a flawed system of though...isn't any form of disagreement today considered intolerance? Is it ok to disagree? I think it is.

I don't see how it's the government's responsibility to teach how to use contraception. In any event, I didn't need teachers to teach me about contraception, and neither do today's youth.

Yes, kids need to be taught, but I don't like the idea of a nanny state running our lives.

[Todd4]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

We're called intolerant when we point out a flawed system of though...isn't any form of disagreement today considered intolerance? Is it ok to disagree? I think it is.

I don't see how it's the government's responsibility to teach how to use contraception. In any event, I didn't need teachers to teach me about contraception, and neither do today's youth.

Yes, kids need to be taught, but I don't like the idea of a nanny state running our lives.

Outlaw abortion. Don't let well funded school programs teach kids about contraception.

Your societal beliefs are now bordering on RIDICULOUS and dangerous....and oddly....more and more like the Iranian government with each statement.