[smithy77]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

Arguing from silence is really a weak argument.

He upheld the OT, which explicitly condemned it. You've also misinterpreted the Sabbath work and slavery as well...but that would be expected.

Sorry, 3,000 year old Jewish law makes no sense in the 21st Century (except maybe to an Ultra-Orthodox Jew). Re-read Leviticus and Deuteronomy and tell me that you live by these precepts. Fundamentalists like the WBC lift certain carefully chosen quotes out of the Bible and push them in peoples' faces while conveniently ignoring Old Testament laws that make absolutely no sense in today's world----'cherry-picking' Bible quotes to suit their political agendas. This is the fundamental problem I have with Fundamentalists in general. It's dishonest and manipulative----and frankly I think it represents a peculiar form of spiritual laziness. I did not misrepresent laws regarding the Jewish Sabbath (which is on Saturday, by the way). Also, St. Paul did say the following: "slaves, obey your masters". This quote was used by countless Western civilizations (including Fundamentalist Protestant ministers in the American South) over hundreds of years to justify slavery. If you don't believe this, your knowledge of history is lacking. Jesus WAS very "explicit" about subjects like wealth and divorce, but we Christians in America conveniently ignore THESE precepts, as well as the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount. WBC types would rather beat people up with selective quotes from the Old Testament and Revelation. What the WBC and their sympathizers will never understand or accept is that the essence of Christianity involves the actual words of Jesus.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by smithy77

Sorry, 3,000 year old Jewish law makes no sense in the 21st Century (except maybe to an Ultra-Orthodox Jew). Re-read Leviticus and Deuteronomy and tell me that you live by these precepts.

The Levitical Law was given to the Jews living at that time, in that setting. They're not intended for us to live by today. We have a New Covenant.

Fundamentalists like the WBC lift certain carefully chosen quotes out of the Bible and push them in peoples' faces while conveniently ignoring Old Testament laws that make absolutely no sense in today's world----'cherry-picking' Bible quotes to suit their political agendas. This is the fundamental problem I have with Fundamentalists in general. It's dishonest and manipulative----and frankly I think it represents a peculiar form of spiritual laziness.

You are correct regarding the wbc freaks. But please don't lump me into the same category.

I did not misrepresent laws regarding the Jewish Sabbath (which is on Saturday, by the way).

Yah...you did, actually. The NT states that Christ is our rest--we are to live every day for God--not just 1 day a week.

Also, St. Paul did say the following: "slaves, obey your masters".

Biblical slavery was much different than slavery of colonial America. 2000 years ago a person could actually willingly enter into it.

This quote was used by countless Western civilizations (including Fundamentalist Protestant ministers in the American South) over hundreds of years to justify slavery. If you don't believe this, your knowledge of history is lacking.

Yup. It was. And you're misusing it now to try to prove your own points. Does that make you a sort of fundamentalist?

Jesus WAS very "explicit" about subjects like wealth and divorce, but we Christians in America conveniently ignore THESE precepts, as well as the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount.

He never said we couldn't have money--just that it shouldn't come between us and God. Divorce is not to happen--except in the case of adultery, according to Jesus.

[smithy77]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

The Levitical Law was given to the Jews living at that time, in that setting. They're not intended for us to live by today. We have a New Covenant.

You are correct regarding the wbc freaks. But please don't lump me into the same category.

Yah...you did, actually. The NT states that Christ is our rest--we are to live every day for God--not just 1 day a week.

Biblical slavery was much different than slavery of colonial America. 2000 years ago a person could actually willingly enter into it.

Yup. It was. And you're misusing it now to try to prove your own points. Does that make you a sort of fundamentalist

He never said we couldn't have money--just that it shouldn't come between us and God. Divorce is not to happen--except in the case of adultery, according to Jesus.

I've never been a fundamentalist, I'm just trying to point out how I think people use the Bible to forward their own agendas.

Regarding the Sabbath:

From Exodus 35:2

"Work shall be done for 6 days, but the 7th day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does work on it shall be put to death."

Of course Jesus never said we couldn't have money or make a living, I was referring to the conspicuous wealth that Jesus was critical of in the Gospels, and I think you know what I'm talking about.

You state that Levitical laws were not intended for us today, but my point was not about their contemporary irrelevance, but the fact that Fundamentalists and the WBC will gladly invoke these quotes to remind us about Biblical precepts that we should heed, thus attempting to make them relevant. So I guess you agree with me on that point. "The New Covenant" idea is lost on these people. Don't you agree? If Levitical laws are not relevant, as you stated, then why do Fundamentalists invoke them to make a political or moral point?

Regarding slavery: Despite its form, it still involves the ownership of human beings. By today's standards it's indefensible. Historically Christian sects over the years defended the practice---all now condemn it. This illustration alone proves my point about the dangers of quoting the Bible selectively to make a moral point.

[DTO Luv]

Not that it matters because it's all fantasy but the christian god seems to change course a lot. He creates people and then lets them go on until the time of moses before he gives them the rules he wants to live by, not to mention no outside of the middle east would ever hear about these laws. Then he changes plans again with the whole jesus nonsense. If he's so perfect why does he keep changing his standards and rules? Like I said, not that it matters becuase it's all fake.

The sooner people realize all of the faults with the bible the better.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by smithy77

I've never been a fundamentalist, I'm just trying to point out how I think people use the Bible to forward their own agendas.

Regarding the Sabbath:

From Exodus 35:2

"Work shall be done for 6 days, but the 7th day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does work on it shall be put to death."

Of course Jesus never said we couldn't have money or make a living, I was referring to the conspicuous wealth that Jesus was critical of in the Gospels, and I think you know what I'm talking about.

You state that Levitical laws were not intended for us today, but my point was not about their contemporary irrelevance, but the fact that Fundamentalists and the WBC will gladly invoke these quotes to remind us about Biblical precepts that we should heed, thus attempting to make them relevant. So I guess you agree with me on that point. "The New Covenant" idea is lost on these people. Don't you agree? If Levitical laws are not relevant, as you stated, then why do Fundamentalists invoke them to make a political or moral point?

Regarding slavery: Despite its form, it still involves the ownership of human beings. By today's standards it's indefensible. Historically Christian sects over the years defended the practice---all now condemn it. This illustration alone proves my point about the dangers of quoting the Bible selectively to make a moral point.

Christ is our Sabbath. We are to rest in him--we no longer have to observe a day of rest--with the New Covenant we should be in Christ daily.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? The OT Law was given to Israel through Moses. The covenant was that if they obeyed and followed it, they would be blessed...if they didn't, they would be punished.

The New Testament shows a New Covenant--not based on the Law. We don't need to observe a specific day to fulfill it--our faith in Christ fulfills it. His sacrifice satisfied it.

We are told though, by Christ and elsewhere in the NT not to commit adultery or fornication. Since God ordained marriage in Genesis as man/woman, and any sex outside of marriage is fornication or adultery then homosexuality is clearly wrong. It preceded the OT Law, and it is still in effect today.

I'm sorry that there have been freaks like the wbc folks. I really am--they make me look bad by association.

[ehenningsen]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

Christ is our Sabbath. We are to rest in him--we no longer have to observe a day of rest--with the New Covenant we should be in Christ daily.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? The OT Law was given to Israel through Moses. The covenant was that if they obeyed and followed it, they would be blessed...if they didn't, they would be punished.

The New Testament shows a New Covenant--not based on the Law. We don't need to observe a specific day to fulfill it--our faith in Christ fulfills it. His sacrifice satisfied it.

We are told though, by Christ and elsewhere in the NT not to commit adultery or fornication. Since God ordained marriage in Genesis as man/woman, and any sex outside of marriage is fornication or adultery then homosexuality is clearly wrong. It preceded the OT Law, and it is still in effect today.

I'm sorry that there have been freaks like the wbc folks. I really am--they make me look bad by association.

Christ is our sabbath?

Tell me where it says that in the bible..

Also, Christ said the two laws we ALL MUST obey is to love others and to love God himself..

Everything else is old time law..

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by ehenningsen

Christ is our sabbath?

Tell me where it says that in the bible..

Christ has fulfilled all the requirements of the Law. Because it would require that I get into a rather lengthy discussion and don't really feel like typing it all, here is an excellent source for an explanation:

Why do we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

I'm sure Mr. Slick (yes, that's his real name) is able to explain it much more eloquently than I am.

Also, Christ said the two laws we ALL MUST obey is to love others and to love God himself..

Everything else is old time law..

You are correct. And you cannot possibly love God while going against the things he's commanded.

[Vic_Vega]

You just gotta love the Westboro Baptist Church. A very good example that there still is atleast some freedom of speech in the US.

[ehenningsen]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

Christ has fulfilled all the requirements of the Law. Because it would require that I get into a rather lengthy discussion and don't really feel like typing it all, here is an excellent source for an explanation:

Why do we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

I'm sure Mr. Slick (yes, that's his real name) is able to explain it much more eloquently than I am.



You are correct. And you cannot possibly love God while going against the things he's commanded.

And so in effect, while Jesus said there are two laws that are to love god and man and those are the only two.. He really meant that we must all obey all the laws written in the bible because if we don't then we don't truly love god..

Sounds like a paradox..

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by ehenningsen

And so in effect, while Jesus said there are two laws that are to love god and man and those are the only two.. He really meant that we must all obey all the laws written in the bible because if we don't then we don't truly love god..

Sounds like a paradox..

It's about the motivation in your heart. Obeying the Law out of ritual or a feeling of duty is not the same as doing God's will out of faith. He

Jesus said "(Mat 9:13) Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

He came for those that recognize they are sinners--and humble themselves before God--not those that think they're innocent because they have done what's commanded.