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Old 06-16-2010, 12:52 PM
 
152 posts, read 317,320 times
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So the ends justifies the means?

The ends = education about the human body.

The Means = mutilation and display of dead bodies that appear to have been victims of state execution by China. (Modern day crucifictions)
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:37 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 23,108,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tones View Post
So the ends justifies the means?

The ends = education about the human body.

The Means = mutilation and display of dead bodies that appear to have been victims of state execution by China. (Modern day crucifictions)
Don't worry about it. The exhibit is in downtown - which is east of 90th Street. You won't be able to haul your(modcut) self down here anyway.


That said, people need to stop jumping to conspiracy-theory style conclusions about these bodies. It could be that the Chinese government is wrongly executing prisoners so that they can sell their bodies. But we have no evidence of that. It could also be that there are executed prisoners whose bodies are simply laying there in a morgue, and if they're not disposed of by some other means, they'll be tossed in a mass grave somewhere.

The bottom line is that we don't know.

Last edited by GraniteStater; 06-19-2010 at 06:06 PM..
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:43 AM
 
152 posts, read 317,320 times
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Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
That said, people need to stop jumping to conspiracy-theory style conclusions about these bodies. It could be that the Chinese government is wrongly executing prisoners so that they can sell their bodies. But we have no evidence of that.
The bottom line is that we don't know.
The fact that "we don't know" is chilling. (Lack of documentation by the curators) Also chilling are the apparent holes in several of the bodies around the heart and some on the head. Right where the Chinese shoot for executions. For all we know, these are Tibentan monks that have been eradicated for political purposes, and given the ultimate crucifiction by China.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
It could also be that there are executed prisoners whose bodies are simply laying there in a morgue, and if they're not disposed of by some other means, they'll be tossed in a mass grave somewhere.
So why let that "meat" go to waste? How disrespectful to the dead is THAT Professor Knowsnot?
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:09 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 23,108,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tones View Post
The fact that "we don't know" is chilling. (Lack of documentation by the curators) Also chilling are the apparent holes in several of the bodies around the heart and some on the head. Right where the Chinese shoot for executions. For all we know, these are Tibentan monks that have been eradicated for political purposes, and given the ultimate crucifiction by China.

So why let that "meat" go to waste? How disrespectful to the dead is THAT Professor Knowsnot?
For all we know, this could all be complete and total conspiracy theory BS - kind of like the accusations that GWB & Cheney planted the explosives that felled the WTC Towers, and dynamited the levees in NO during Katrina.

The fact that somebody doesn't go to adequate lengths to prove your wild speculations false does not mean that they are well thought out or grounded in reality, Professor Paranoia.

"I hear there are bullet-holes in some of the skulls..." OMG!!!! "I hear that one of the bodies is actually being raped..." Yeah, whatever.


Rather than all this screeching & wild speculation - which is nothing more than making up crap - why don't we come up with some credible proof to back up these far-fetched ideas?
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:31 AM
 
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Proof?
Well, the owners of the exhibit are unwilling/unable to show proof that these people (and they were people with names and lives and friends and jobs at one time) willingly donated their bodies to be flayed and displayed. They can't do that, can they? Plus the people on display were for the most part young and healthy at the time of their deaths. Haven't you wondered how they died?
Now lets bring into this Chinas human rights record into this. China has low regard for human life, and regularily imprison people who go to a christian churches not regulated by the state. As a previous poster said the chances that the cool body you viewed was a tibetan budhist monk is pretty damn good. Don't believe me? Try amnesty international for more information.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:38 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 23,108,584 times
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Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Proof?
Well, the owners of the exhibit are unwilling/unable to show proof that these people (and they were people with names and lives and friends and jobs at one time) willingly donated their bodies to be flayed and displayed. They can't do that, can they? Plus the people on display were for the most part young and healthy at the time of their deaths. Haven't you wondered how they died?
Now lets bring into this Chinas human rights record into this. China has low regard for human life, and regularily imprison people who go to a christian churches not regulated by the state. As a previous poster said the chances that the cool body you viewed was a tibetan budhist monk is pretty damn good. Don't believe me? Try amnesty international for more information.
I understand what you're saying. But that doesn't equal proof.

I could just as easily claim that you're a serial killer, and are responsible for the deaths of dozens of people who have disappeared in the last 10 years. The fact that you do not prove me wrong does not automatically prove my wild accusations true.

In like manner, you could accuse me of being a serial rapist. But I don't owe you an explanation. Further, my lack of explanation does not mean that your wild accusation is true.

It's a bit like those who absolutely insist that President Obama is a Muslim and is not a citizen. The fact that he does not go out of his way to honor each of those accusations by proving them false does not automatically mean they are true. Further, the people leveling those accusations wouldn't be satisfied with any measure of proof to the contrary.

We've seen such profound ignorance displayed here on the Omaha sub-forum, where one member insists that Brownell-Talbott School is in a "dangerous" part of town. Such an accusation/assumption does not automatically make anything true. In fact, it is nothing more than a commentary on the person who makes such an assumption.

Unproven accusations are a funny thing that way...

Last edited by Omaha Rocks; 06-17-2010 at 08:46 AM..
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:48 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,270,427 times
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Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
I understand what you're saying. But that doesn't equal proof.

I could just as easily claim that you're a serial killer, and are responsible for the deaths of dozens of people who have disappeared in the last 10 years. The fact that you do not prove me wrong does not automatically prove my wild accusations true.

In like manner, you could accuse me of being a serial rapist. But I don't owe you an explanation. Further, my lack of explanation does not mean that your wild accusation is true.

It's a bit like those who absolutely insist that President Obama is a Muslim and is not a citizen. The fact that he does not go out of his way to honor each of those accusations by proving them false does not automatically mean they are true. Further, the people leveling those accusations wouldn't be satisfied with any measure of proof to the contrary.


Unproven accusations are a funny thing that way...
I could prove that I am not a serial killer by providing a time line of where I was when the crimes were committed -- just as you could prove that you are not a rapist. We could and would provide alibis, dna and our respective pasts as good and law abiding citizens.
China's government has a history of human rights violations (remember Tianamen Square?) and Chinas businesses have a history of consumer fraud and negligence (tainted milk, anyone?). Past behavior can and does predict future behavior. And beyond all that the fact remains the proof of these human beings identities remain shrouded. One plus one equals two, no?
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:20 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
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Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I could prove that I am not a serial killer by providing a time line of where I was when the crimes were committed -- just as you could prove that you are not a rapist. We could and would provide alibis, dna and our respective pasts as good and law abiding citizens.
China's government has a history of human rights violations (remember Tianamen Square?) and Chinas businesses have a history of consumer fraud and negligence (tainted milk, anyone?). Past behavior can and does predict future behavior. And beyond all that the fact remains the proof of these human beings identities remain shrouded. One plus one equals two, no?
Not necessarily.

Yes, you make perfectly legitimate points about displaying innocence for either you or me. However, with those points you are arguing from the assumption of "innocent until proven guilty." That is the exact opposite assumption you're attaching to this Bodies Exhibit. Your assumption there seems to be "guilty unless proven innocent." And my argument is that you cannot always prove innocence if somebody is just assuming guilt.

I say, "Innocent until proven guilty," and you seem to be saying, "guilty unless proven innocent."


The bottom line is that WE DO NOT KNOW the circumstances surrounding the bodies used in this exhibit. If that keeps you from going, fine. It might or might not keep me away.
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Bennington NE
119 posts, read 385,830 times
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The promise of money and no rules or regulations opens the door to corrupt practices. Some historical perspective:

The growth of medical colleges studying anatomy prior to the 19th century increased demand for human cadavers. In the United Kingdom it was legal to use the bodies of executed criminals but demand started to outpace supply. Medical colleges were not required to be licensed at the time, and the shortage gave reason not to question their suppliers. Body snatching from fresh graves became a profitable business. Anatomists had to deal with the morality of such practices and many considered it to be a necessary evil, with the ends justifying the means. Some criminals found other means of obtaining bodies, especially fresher bodies that could bring higher prices. From 1827 to 1828 William Burke and William Hare sold 17 victims to a doctor in Scotland that were obtained by more creative means. According to testimony, the first victim was a gentleman who died of natural causes, owing rent to lodging house owner Margaret Hare. Instead of burying the body, the coffin was filled with bark and the body was taken to Edinborough university to sell. The next victim was a sick tennant who they got intoxicated and then suffocated. When there were no other sick tennants, they began to lure their victims from the street. One of the later victims included an 18 year old mentally retarded boy that was well known to many people as "Daft Jamie". When the Doctor uncovered the body in class the next day, several students recognized the boy. However, the Doctor denied that it was Jamie, and began to dissect his face first.

Body snatching and these murders led to the Anatomy Act of 1832 which called for licensing of medical colleges, and the expansion of legal supply of cadavers for medical purposes.

In my opinion, the fact that these Chinese companies are not disclosing or keeping records of where the bodies came from is suspicious enough for me not to patronize this. If I knew that the bodies were donated from the prison to whoever preserves them I might feel slightly different. But if the preservers are making big bucks off of selling these to museums, why wouldn't they want a cut? I don't assume they are guilty at all; I would just be more comfortable with it if they could prove how they were obtained in the first place. You can't tell me that China, with all its government control doesn't do a good job keeping records of things. I'm sure they do an awesome job of it when it benefits them. But if it doesn't benefit them, then not keeping records is very convenient.

I work at a company that is undergoing the process of obtaining Safe Quality Food (SQF) certification. This certification requires adherence to strict rules and regulations in order to assure other companies and the public that food and its packaging is safe and completely traceable. What I have learned is that as far as suppliers go, it is not enough to look the other way or blindly trust our suppliers. It is our responsibility to ask for and require documentation showing the orgin and components of anything that affects food quality and safety. It is up to any company to decide if they want to only do business with companies that have this certification. In our case, we have to do this because Walmart is requiring all its food suppliers to become certified. Since Walmart sells the products of most of our customers, our customers are requiring us to become certified as well.

In the same manner, it is up to the individual to decide if they want to patronize an exhibit which may or may not have aquired displays by immoral methods. This of course is a moral issue and not a safety issue like with food. If one is comfortable with the disclaimer they provide, then by all means go and enjoy the exhibit. If not, then don't go. I myself will not.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:07 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 23,108,584 times
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Originally Posted by vpandora View Post
In the same manner, it is up to the individual to decide if they want to patronize an exhibit which may or may not have aquired displays by immoral methods. This of course is a moral issue and not a safety issue like with food. If one is comfortable with the disclaimer they provide, then by all means go and enjoy the exhibit. If not, then don't go. I myself will not.
Exactly.

You will choose to not go to the exhibit. My wife and I probably will go see it.
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