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Old 05-31-2010, 12:19 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
And they'd be wrong.

There are no verses in the bible that specifically speak of homosexuality as a sin. There is one or two that could possibly be interpreted that way, but there is plenty of dispute about it, and even leading theologians haven't been able to come to agreement yet.
Well yeah, there's a lot of controversy around them. But they are there.

There are a couple verses in Leviticus that are pretty clear. 18:22 says, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." 20:13 says, "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

There's also the verse in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, though I've heard that most scholars view that as a prohibition against pederasty.


So unless I'm missing something, there are a total of 3 verses in the Bible that say anything about homosexuality.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:20 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Ne View Post
I have. But name them anyway.
No you don't, and I just did.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:24 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpoulsen View Post
And for every bible verse you cite against homosexuality one can also cite one that says its not YOUR business to judge and that is only god's domain.
You might want to lighten up in your passive-aggressive comments.

I made no commentary on the typical Christian view homosexuality. I simply said that there are Bible verses that speak against it. I provided the only 3 I've ever heard of.

Further, I made no comments for or against gay marriage.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,330 posts, read 6,312,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
Well yeah, there's a lot of controversy around them. But they are there.

There are a couple verses in Leviticus that are pretty clear. 18:22 says, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." 20:13 says, "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

There's also the verse in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, though I've heard that most scholars view that as a prohibition against pederasty.


So unless I'm missing something, there are a total of 3 verses in the Bible that say anything about homosexuality.
Leviticus is null. Leviticus 19:19
Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
Leviticus 19: 23-25
'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. [b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden [c] ; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:27
'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
Leviticus 19:32
'Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.
Or even all of Chapter 11.
So yeah, Leviticus is irrelevant.
And even you said Corinthians is debatable at best.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:52 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Ne View Post
Leviticus is null. Leviticus 19:19
Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
Leviticus 19: 23-25
'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. [b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden [c] ; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:27
'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
Leviticus 19:32
'Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.
Or even all of Chapter 11.
So yeah, Leviticus is irrelevant.
And even you said Corinthians is debatable at best.
So what is your problem here? Are you thinking I'm Fred Phelps or something? Or are you just inflamed that somebody would have the audacity to speak the truth - and that is that there are some verses in the Bible that speak against homosexuality? Wow.
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:21 AM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Ne View Post
Marriage is far more than that.
Rights and responsibilities of marriages in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
These are the automatic rights associated with marriage that gay couples are denied to.
Plus, why are you trying to.... You call yourself a Christian but you deny love, our God is Love! And how would it affect you so much? Honestly, how?
I guess I don't understand. The above link (although I don't usually trust Wikipedia 100%) states that the law defines marriage as between a man and woman. In order to quality for marriage benefits your marriage has to meet that definition. Gay couples aren't entitled to the benefits, because they don't meet the definition to receive the benefits. It's not about denying them their rights or love. It's about giving benefits to the people that meet the definition of marriage. Not just passing out benefits and rewarding people for being gay.

It's like a family making too much money to qualify for welfare, but insisting that getting welfare is their right and that they deserve the same benefits as poor people. That it's not fair to give some people assistance and not others. They are not getting welfare because they don't meet the definition of a family that deserves it. Gay people don't get marriage benefits, because they don't meet the definition to deserve it. Should we change the law for the welfare applicant? Should we give them special rights? No, because it would end up hurting people that deserve welfare benefits.
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Old 05-31-2010, 03:20 AM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
11,005 posts, read 10,088,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
and that is that there are some verses in the Bible that speak against homosexuality? Wow.
Except they don't. As I said in my previous post, none of them specifically address it and there is plenty of debate about the interpretations of a few others. See below...

Quote:
Jesus spent his whole life going to the poor, the marginalized, the persons who were called unclean by their society, and demonstrating that God's love included them. He treated them with compassion. His own harshest words were for the Pharisees who believed that they were righteous in God's eyes, that others were not, and that God's judgments and opinions were identical to their own.


Which brings me to the question of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality. There is not time, this morning, to take up that question in depth -- we will have plenty of time for that later, in ongoing Bible studies and discussion. But let me say a few things here. The world "homosexual" does not appear anywhere in the Bible -- that words was not invented in any language, until the 1890s, when for the first time the awareness developed that there are people with a constitutional orientation toward their own sex.


In the whole Bible, there are only seven brief passages that deal with homosexual behavior. The first is the story of Sodom and Gomorra, which I preached on last fall, which is actually irrelevant to the issue. The attempted gang rape in Sodom has nothing to say about whether or not genuine love expressed between consenting adults of the same gender is legitimate.


Neither does the passage in Deuteronomy 23, which refers to Canaanite fertility rites that have infiltrated Jewish worship. Passages in I Corinthians and I Timothy refer to male prostitution. Two often-quoted passages prohibiting male homosexual behavior are found in the book of Leviticus. Leviticus also stipulates that any man who touches a woman during her menstrual period is to be stoned to death, that adulterers are to be executed, that interracial marriage is sinful, that two types of cloth are not to be worn together, and certain foods must never be eaten.


I know of no Christians, no matter how fundamentalist, who believe that Christians are bound to obey all of the Levitical laws. Instead we are driven to ask deeper questions about how to rightly interpret Scripture, how to separate the Word of God from cultural norms and prejudices -- that is, how to separate the Message from the envelope in which it comes.


The final Biblical text that deals with homosexual behavior is found in Paul's letter to the Romans, in which he unequivocally condemns homosexual behavior. The background for his understanding was the common Roman practice of older males 'keeping' young boys for sexual exploitation, which he was right to condemn.


But even if this were not the case, even if Paul knew about and condemned all forms of homosexual behavior, even the most loving, what then? Paul also told women not to teach, not to cut their hair, not to speak in church. Do we follow his teaching? He told slaves to obey their masters not once, but five times -- are we prepared to say today, as Southern slave owners argued 150 years ago, that slavery is God's will?


The fact is, I am not a disciple of Paul. I am an admirer of Paul, but a disciple of Jesus Christ. Paul himself says that we should not follow him, but Christ alone. So I come back, again to the life and teaching of Jesus as the center of my faith. In that light all other biblical teaching must be critiqued. There are seven passages about homosexual behavior in the Bible, all of which are debatable as to their meaning for us today. There are thousands of references in the Bible that call us, as Jesus commands, to love our neighbor, to work for peace and reconciliation among all people, and to leave judgment to God.

Is Homosexuality a Sin? by Rev. Dr. Kathlyn James (http://www.jesusmcc.org/resource/rev_james.html - broken link)

Just for reference, Leviticus was Old Testament, hence on that alone it is ultimately irrelevant today.

Book of Leviticus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (see the "Leviticus in subsequent tradition --> Christianity" section)

Here are a couple more links that although obviously biased, do provide a lot of factual perspective.

Shrine Prostitutes are never identified as homosexuals in the Bible.

Leviticus was written to Old Testament Jews, NOT to New Testament Christians.

While I'm sure you're not doing it intentionally, it's disingenuous at best to state that the Bible speaks against homosexuality when the debate is still raging so fierce.
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Old 05-31-2010, 03:26 AM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
11,005 posts, read 10,088,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheaton View Post
I guess I don't understand. The above link (although I don't usually trust Wikipedia 100%) states that the law defines marriage as between a man and woman.
That's because people made the law that way. Laws which ultimately I think will be stricken down as unconstitutional if/when the Supreme Court finally takes up the issue.

Quote:
In order to quality for marriage benefits your marriage has to meet that definition. Gay couples aren't entitled to the benefits, because they don't meet the definition to receive the benefits. It's not about denying them their rights or love. It's about giving benefits to the people that meet the definition of marriage. Not just passing out benefits and rewarding people for being gay.
And once upon a time we didn't provide rights to blacks because we wrote laws to take away (or never give) their rights. Ultimately those laws were found unconstitutional and were overturned.

I have no doubt that laws banning gay marriage will someday meet the same fate. Hopefully we can skip that whole civil war part though.
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Old 05-31-2010, 07:41 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 14,542,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Except they don't. As I said in my previous post, none of them specifically address it and there is plenty of debate about the interpretations of a few others. See below...
True, the word "homosexual" does not appear in the Bible. But when a verse says "do not lie with another man as one would lie with a woman, that is despicable," the meaning is pretty clear.

So that leaves a person to explain why a verse really doesn't mean what it says - which the writer you quoted did quite nicely.
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Old 05-31-2010, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
That's because people made the law that way. Laws which ultimately I think will be stricken down as unconstitutional if/when the Supreme Court finally takes up the issue.
Maybe. But then again, how can something be unconstitutional if it was always intended to be man and woman. I would argue that allowing gay marriage is unconstitutional.

Quote:
And once upon a time we didn't provide rights to blacks because we wrote laws to take away (or never give) their rights. Ultimately those laws were found unconstitutional and were overturned.

I have no doubt that laws banning gay marriage will someday meet the same fate. Hopefully we can skip that whole civil war part though.
This part, I'm not sure if you are talking about the abolition of slavery or the civil rights movement?? But in any case. There is not a law that says you can't get married if you are gay. There is no law banning gay marriage. The law simply says that the state will not legally recognize your marriage, because it doesn't meet the definition of being a man and woman. Again, the law isn't banning it, but it's not in the interest of the state to encourage it either.
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