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Old 02-01-2012, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
26,426 posts, read 62,665,397 times
Reputation: 30210

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasdean View Post
I disagree with basically everything written above. I specialize in lead based paint, lead hazards and finding out where children are being lead poisoned. If you do any research at all, you can't help to come away with a concern.

OP, I'm not saying to panic, but also think you have the right to be concerned. I also think as a parent, there is no blame to you. You are doing a perfect job as a parent in this particular concern.
I have done a vast amount of research - which inclues more than just sales materials for marketing lead paint remdiation. I did not say that they should noe be concerned, only that it is unlikely that there is a propblem and the quantities of lead that need to be ingested to cause a problem are substantial. Eating one paint chip is not going to make a child mentally handicapped. Eating a lot of them might, but even then it is not that likely. Most lead poisoning occurred from kids sucking or chewing on windowsills and radiators for a considerable period of time. These kids couls have stuffed 100 paint chips into their moths for all we know. But it is unlikely. With regular vacuuming that most people do, there would not be that much paint unless it was literrally falling off the wall like rain. Would I get them tested? Sure. Would I sit up at night worrying about it until they were tested? No.



People who sell risk mitigation services 9lead, radon, mold, asbestos, etc) generally over hype the risk. If you cannot get the Moms and Dads panicky, they are not going to pay the $1500 bill. It is alwasy hyped. It is just a question of whether it is hyped a little bit or a lot.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:50 PM
 
107 posts, read 165,165 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
I have done a vast amount of research - which inclues more than just sales materials for marketing lead paint remdiation. I did not say that they should noe be concerned, only that it is unlikely that there is a propblem and the quantities of lead that need to be ingested to cause a problem are substantial. Eating one paint chip is not going to make a child mentally handicapped. Eating a lot of them might, but even then it is not that likely. Most lead poisoning occurred from kids sucking or chewing on windowsills and radiators for a considerable period of time. These kids couls have stuffed 100 paint chips into their moths for all we know. But it is unlikely. With regular vacuuming that most people do, there would not be that much paint unless it was literrally falling off the wall like rain. Would I get them tested? Sure. Would I sit up at night worrying about it until they were tested? No.



People who sell risk mitigation services 9lead, radon, mold, asbestos, etc) generally over hype the risk. If you cannot get the Moms and Dads panicky, they are not going to pay the $1500 bill. It is alwasy hyped. It is just a question of whether it is hyped a little bit or a lot.
Very few lead poisonings are from paint chips. Very few. At least according to thousands of scientist and researchers, some whom I deal with daily.

It takes less than a grain of sand of lead to damage a child permanently. Much less. Once again, according to thousands of scientist and researchers.

Selling and marketing to remediation companies, doesn't make one an expert. Remediation companies are concerned usually with the removal of lead based paint or at least stabilizing it. They themselves realize that they aren't in the testing field. In fact, they have to call certified inspectors to see if they have cleaned up to standards. Most of the time, they have not.

Even at the standards that they clean up to (floor 40 mcg/ft2), 50% of the small children will get enough lead to hurt their cognitive reasoning, do poorly in school and have behavioral changes. Once again, this according to scientist and researchers and even the Advisory Board to the CDC.

Get a calculator and do some math on what it takes for a infant to get just 5 mcg/dl (micro grams per deciliter) of lead in their blood. You will find it to be extremely small. Now do some research on the effects 5 mcg/dl can cause a child.

If you do ... you won't see "don't be concerned". In fact, 5 mcg/dl greatly improves the chances of an adult dying from heart attack or stroke. So, it isn't just kids.

Not trying to bust your chops. Just don't want incorrect information out there that can harm children and adults.

Your $1500 is incorrect too. I wish it wasn't but far far far from the truth again.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:39 PM
 
26,579 posts, read 52,064,513 times
Reputation: 20358
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasdean View Post
Very few lead poisonings are from paint chips. Very few. At least according to thousands of scientist and researchers, some whom I deal with daily.
A few years back elevated levels of lead were found in a child... after an exhaustive testing of the home at no small expense it was found the child's favorite pacifier to be the source...

Some how the plasticizer had extremely high levels... I think it triggered a nationwide recall and was traced back to China...

Same thing for imported plastic window blinds... some tested very high for lead...

Then there were the children's imported tea sets...

The list almost seems never ending...
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:37 PM
 
107 posts, read 165,165 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
A few years back elevated levels of lead were found in a child... after an exhaustive testing of the home at no small expense it was found the child's favorite pacifier to be the source...

Some how the plasticizer had extremely high levels... I think it triggered a nationwide recall and was traced back to China...

Same thing for imported plastic window blinds... some tested very high for lead...

Then there were the children's imported tea sets...

The list almost seems never ending...
Agree. I've had some strange cases. One where the grandfather would come over to see the grand-baby after work (construction), before heading home. Dust on his clothes.

Some spices from India

Two doors down from a homeowner they were refinishing wood floors. They would bring the dust bag outside and empty it into a trash bag. The dust that escaped ended up going two doors down and into a closed window.

Medium levels in the soil. Dog would run around and then be let in. Paws left it on the floor by the door.

Apple juice
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
26,426 posts, read 62,665,397 times
Reputation: 30210
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasdean View Post
Very few lead poisonings are from paint chips. Very few. At least according to thousands of scientist and researchers, some whom I deal with daily.

It takes less than a grain of sand of lead to damage a child permanently. Much less. Once again, according to thousands of scientist and researchers.

Selling and marketing to remediation companies, doesn't make one an expert. Remediation companies are concerned usually with the removal of lead based paint or at least stabilizing it. They themselves realize that they aren't in the testing field. In fact, they have to call certified inspectors to see if they have cleaned up to standards. Most of the time, they have not.

Even at the standards that they clean up to (floor 40 mcg/ft2), 50% of the small children will get enough lead to hurt their cognitive reasoning, do poorly in school and have behavioral changes. Once again, this according to scientist and researchers and even the Advisory Board to the CDC.

Get a calculator and do some math on what it takes for a infant to get just 5 mcg/dl (micro grams per deciliter) of lead in their blood. You will find it to be extremely small. Now do some research on the effects 5 mcg/dl can cause a child.

If you do ... you won't see "don't be concerned". In fact, 5 mcg/dl greatly improves the chances of an adult dying from heart attack or stroke. So, it isn't just kids.

Not trying to bust your chops. Just don't want incorrect information out there that can harm children and adults.

Your $1500 is incorrect too. I wish it wasn't but far far far from the truth again.

Althoguh this is patently BS since no one deals with thousands of people daily and there are not thousands of researchers studying the effects of lead paint, this is agreeing with me anyway. Very few instnaces of children getting lead poisoning from paint chips is exactly what I was saying. It is unlikely that their children have a problem. It is possible, but unlikely. Statistically, ti is probably more likeely that they will get killed on the freeway while driving to the lab for testing. Paint chips do not have that much lead in them and you would have to eat a lot of them to absorb much lead.

"Don't be excessively cocerned" comes from, among other sources, the hospital where we took our kids to be tested after I had been sanding and heat gunning lead paint in our house for over a year. The doctors told us that evwn when kids are known to have ingested lead, it is not hthat common that the absorb sufficient quantities to create a mentla health issue. In our family, no one had any significant amount of lead, not even me. Hosiptal said that we just had the normal amount that you get from food.

YEs lead is in your food. Particularly in fish, but it can be found in all kinds of food, including organically grown leafy vegatbles. Lead is a fairly common substance and was used so widely in our society that it is still all over the place. As a kid, I had a chunk of lead that I used to play with. I could pound it into all kinds of shapes, melt it with a small fire, all kinds of neat things. It was fun. My parents knew that it could be bad to eat, so they told me not to eat it. Lots of things had lead in them - food cans, toys, crayons, windows, paint, pipes, halloween costumes, pencils, bird cages . . .

Compared to the lead that was used in water pipes for solder in the old days, the amount of lead that you can ingest from paint is tiny. According to you, everyone who lived in the 1880s was mentally deficient. For that matter, everyone who lived in the 50s or 60s was mentally deficient. Lead was in all kinds of things.

The problem with these assertons is that they are not true. First there is lead in many many things kids eat including food. Second, there is lead paint in hundreds of thousands of homes. Much of it is peeling. Yet there are very few cases of kids getting lead poisoning in the US. Third, many times they do not know the source of the lead poisoning so they guess things like the dust on grandpas clothing. They could be right, or the kid may have crawled under the house and found an lod pipe with lead solder and stuck it in their motuh. They are just guessing. Finally there have been many recent instances of toys, crayons, even candy containing elements of lead. How many kids were poisoned by this? None that I have seen reported. Maybe they were just miraculously lucky.

There are certian issues that some people love to panic over. When you call them on hyping the risk, they always come back with exaggerations and/or made up facts or studies. However the reailities of life contradict the assertions made here.

Lead poisoning is very very rare. There is no reason to send some poor parent into a panic over the possibility. I will be willing to bet $1000 flat out that their children do not have any problems from lead poisoning from the paint in their rental. THere certinaly is not reason for the judgemental and irrational statement that they should have realized the danger sooner. That is just nasty mean and basically silly. Anyone can play arm chair quarterback and say "I would have thought of that" Very few people would notice the paint in a remote part of the house and fewer still would consider a potential problem with lead. Especially since it is unlikley that there is even a problem.

As an aside: My grandpa was a painter (he mostly painted pig sties), was frequently covered head to toe with lead paint all of the babies in my generation woudl suck on his fingers, inhale the dust - no problems.

LEad is suspected to increase the possibility of heart attack or stroke in some adults, it is nto proven or determined, there was just some correlation in a study. No science behind it. YOu can take pretty much any substance and find a correleation if you play withthe numbers enough. That is why they keep changing their minds about what is and what is not a cause of heart attack and stroke (eggs for example, or fat). Otherwise lead does not really harm adults as far as they know, not that I would suggest ingesting it. It can make men sterile maybe, and it is bad for pregnant women (rather to the baby inside them).

If you charge more than $1500 to remove lead paint from one inside room, then you are reaming people. We had the entire fascia, one side and paart of the rear of our house scraped down and primed last year. The price difference because it was lead paint was less than $2000. This was by a painter certified in lead remediation and with oversight from the county officials. The difference? Vacuums on the scrapers, workers wore suits and masks (I am not sure they would not have worn them anyway), vacuuming the ground and soil testing along the edge of the house when they were done, plus disposal of the removed paint. It is not a monumental effort.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
26,426 posts, read 62,665,397 times
Reputation: 30210
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasdean View Post
Agree. I've had some strange cases. One where the grandfather would come over to see the grand-baby after work (construction), before heading home. Dust on his clothes.

Some spices from India

Two doors down from a homeowner they were refinishing wood floors. They would bring the dust bag outside and empty it into a trash bag. The dust that escaped ended up going two doors down and into a closed window.

Medium levels in the soil. Dog would run around and then be let in. Paws left it on the floor by the door.

Apple juice
Were these instances reported? How was it found? SOrry, but Isimply do nto believe these examples.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:21 PM
 
107 posts, read 165,165 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Were these instances reported? How was it found? SOrry, but Isimply do nto believe these examples.
Post 25

Post 26 During Risk Assessments and EBL Evaluations. It's what I do.
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