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In Oregon my kids had GOBS of homework. The school days there are certainly shorter...
My kids had more homework while we lived in Oregon than any other place we've lived. I think you are right on when you equate that to the shorter school days Oregon also has. Personally I didn't mind the extra homework there because it gives my husband and I a chance to really spend time with the kids getting to work together on what they are doing in school. It's actually a good thing, really.
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Originally Posted by orygun
When we went to MT, my 5th grader was WAY behind in math and Oregon hadn't even introduced cursive writing yet!
I'm not sure if Oregon is using the Investigations Math curriculum all over the state, or if it was just the Eugene school district that we were involved with - but... Wow. The Investigations Math Curriculum that many west coast schools are now using is really scary to me. (I'm currently in the Lake Washington School District in Washington state and they are using it, too.) It is supposed to be a better way of teaching math so that instead of the kids just memorizing facts and things they learn the why's and how's and use manipulatives and play games and work problems out by asking questions and showing all the different ways a problem might be solved. Also, instead of just "2 + 2 = 4" they are supposed to break it all down so that they actually write it out "I know that 2 is 2 ones, so if I add 2 more ones, that means I have 4 ones, so 2 ones plus 2 ones equals 4 ones..."...
Anyway - the math curriculum is VERY different, and if your child went from using Investigations math into a school district that uses a more traditional math curriculum it would totally make sense that they would be "behind". (Not really "behind" but, rather, they are coming from a different background... perhaps it would be similar to trying to suddenly drive a stick shift if you've only ever driven an automatic?) My children have always been taught math at school using the investigations math curriculum and my 6th grader finally this year began studying fractions, decimals, and percents. Last year (5th grade!!) they finally began learning long division. To me, it seems very strange, but I am told and reassured again and again by principals at both schools and teachers and even the middle schools that there is a reason for this new system... it all slowly builds and once you're done with the program you are supposed to have a better grasp of math.
Personally - I'm still skeptical... I lean more traditional when it comes to education... when we homeschooled (in Texas) we started out with a traditional math curriculum, and then when we transitioned into a public traditional school my son was ahead. I still trust the traditional methods, and don't really see why they need to change something that was working for so long? So I teach my kids a traditional math curriculum at home to be sure they are getting a well-rounded approach to it all.
Anyway - you might check into what math curriculum your son came from, and what curriculum they are using now in the new school. That might be why he seemed to be behind - it wasn't so much that Oregon wasn't teaching him, they were maybe just going about it in a different way. It might account for the cursive writing as well... the writing curriculums out here (Oregon, Washington) don't seem to introduce it until the 6th grade - at least in the districts we have been involved with.
Interesting about the writing curriculums. When we lived in WA, we were in the Snohomish district. Our DD learned cursive in 2nd grade in CT. When we moved to WA, our school began it in 3rd grade, so she was already ahead. When we moved to OR, our son was in the middle of 4th grade and was a few months ahead. The cursive at his school here began in earnest in 5th grade.
Since Oregon's schools are supposedly so crummy, why do Oregon students always score so well on national tests? They're usually way up around number two in the nation. Something is being done right.
Interesting about the writing curriculums. When we lived in WA, we were in the Snohomish district. Our DD learned cursive in 2nd grade in CT. When we moved to WA, our school began it in 3rd grade, so she was already ahead. When we moved to OR, our son was in the middle of 4th grade and was a few months ahead. The cursive at his school here began in earnest in 5th grade.
The teacher's I have spoken with regarding the teaching of handwriting (as far as when they begin teaching cursive) have told me that most districts leave it up to the school to decide, and then most schools leave it up to the teachers to decide...
Kid's handwriting these days is awful!! I remember it being a big deal when I was in school. From Kindergarten through 3rd or 4th grade we spent a lot of time learning print and eventually cursive and had to practice and correct our writing every day.
I think there's just so much now for teacher's to try to make time for, and with the shorter days, they have to cut something somewhere. Also, there are more special needs kids in schools now which also puts more pressure on teachers. Also, you are seeing more ESL kids in classrooms, as well as just children moving and transfering into and out of schools who are either ahead or behind in certain areas who need extra support.
It's really such a hard, tricky situation in public schools right now. Most especially in the poorer areas. I admire teachers who stick it out long term and really put their heart into it - many burn out after a few years and move on to something else or stay and simply go through the motions blankly. The pay is not very good and the conditions are stressful. I try to help my teachers out - my kid's teachers - as much as I possibly can, and a few other parents do, too, but so many parents both must work to survive and live at their chosen lifestyle, so many kids are simply left to fend for themselves at school and many teachers don't get the support they need.
haggardhouseelf--I agree with so much of what you wrote. I think that kids handwriting is awful for the most part, and do wish that parents would work with their kids at home on that. We moved a lot because me husband was career military. We were fortunate though and had excellent schools in all but one location. I have been a SAHM since the kids were born, and like you, help out at the schools. I have so much respect for teachers. I know I am not cut out for it, so I volunteer.
I feel the same way!! I am great with small groups, but I could never handle a whole class on my own, every day, all school day, for the whole school year. It's amazing to me how teacher's handle it all. Thanks for the kind reply!
Bobmulk - where did you find that information regarding test results? I have been able to find the test results by district, but I am having trouble finding the results by state... You are talking about the federally mandated standardized math and reading tests that all 3rd - 8th grade public school students must take as part of the controversial "No Child Left Behind" act that President Bush passed on his second day in office?
It offends me, really, that part of that NCLB act requires that the name, home address, and phone number of my kids (all kids enrolled in public schools) be sent to military recruiters. Of course I have the option to "opt out"... but to me that seems backwards. It should be optional to have it sent in the first place. And before anyone gets grumpy with me - I'm not anti-military. I admire and respect our armed forces!
Anyway - back to Oregon - even though I have issues with the standardized tests themselves, I would be interested to see how the states rank, so bobmulk would you mind sharing where you found your info?
[quote=haggardhouseelf;2556839]My kids had more homework while we lived in Oregon than any other place we've lived. I think you are right on when you equate that to the shorter school days Oregon also has. Personally I didn't mind the extra homework there because it gives my husband and I a chance to really spend time with the kids getting to work together on what they are doing in school. It's actually a good thing, really.
I'm not sure if Oregon is using the Investigations Math curriculum all over the state, or if it was just the Eugene school district that we were involved with - but... Wow. The Investigations Math Curriculum that many west coast schools are now using is really scary to me. (I'm currently in the Lake Washington School District in Washington state and they are using it, too.) It is supposed to be a better way of teaching math so that instead of the kids just memorizing facts and things they learn the why's and how's and use manipulatives and play games and work problems out by asking questions and showing all the different ways a problem might be solved. Also, instead of just "2 + 2 = 4" they are supposed to break it all down so that they actually write it out "I know that 2 is 2 ones, so if I add 2 more ones, that means I have 4 ones, so 2 ones plus 2 ones equals 4 ones..."...
Anyway - the math curriculum is VERY different, and if your child went from using Investigations math into a school district that uses a more traditional math curriculum it would totally make sense that they would be "behind". (Not really "behind" but, rather, they are coming from a different background... perhaps it would be similar to trying to suddenly drive a stick shift if you've only ever driven an automatic?) My children have always been taught math at school using the investigations math curriculum and my 6th grader finally this year began studying fractions, decimals, and percents. Last year (5th grade!!) they finally began learning long division. To me, it seems very strange, but I am told and reassured again and again by principals at both schools and teachers and even the middle schools that there is a reason for this new system... it all slowly builds and once you're done with the program you are supposed to have a better grasp of math.
quote]
I personally think that them switching to a more logical progression of concepts might be a step in the right direction. Just to explain....traditional programs tend to spiral, meaning they touch on the subjects a little bit and move on, then keep returning to it until the whole concept is learned. While it seems like your'e covering more ground, you're really not. Some kids do okay with this approach, but the majority do not and when they get stuck the teacher still moves on and this causes major problems for the child later and that's when you see grades/understanding decline. With a program (like I used with my son) that works on mastering an entire concept before moving onto the next logical step (i.e. - adding and adding facts, then subtracting and subtracting facts, etc.) you are more likely to catch problems and correct them. This way they know the concept fully and have a better understanding of WHY 2+2=4, rather than just knowing the fact. My son is six and already doing division because doing math this way, he understands the relationships between the numbers and can figure out real-life problems quickly and easily (like sharing M&M's with a group of friends or what to do when you need a cup of flour but only have a 1/3 size cup). With a traditional spiral-type math program you don't stay on a topic long enough to really gain enough understanding and so it seems like you're farther ahead, but the understanding needed may not be there. Wait until these kids in that new program get into high school. I can almost guarantee they'll be scoring higher on those standardized tests. They may not be right now and it may seem like they're behind because most of the public schools in the country are more concerned with COVERING the material rather than doing it in a way the kids will grasp and hang onto. Just my opinion. Hope this helps clarify the WHY.
That' OK! It was interesting! The traditional vs. "new math" is a debate that everyone with children will be having for many many years... I hope you are right - that the children being taught the "new math" now will eventually do better later. Their teachers have always reassured me that this will be the case. I can see how it would be wonderful in a small setting, or homeshool setting, but in a large class situation it feels chaotic. I always make a point to spend time in my kids classrooms during math time on a regular basis (so that I can understand what they are doing) and it's a bit crazy! Other schools districts have already tried the new math and decided to go back to the more traditional math curriculums. For several years now the recent high school graduates who grew up with the new math have had to take remedial math classes before they began taking college level math. Anyway... maybe it's just taking awhile to smooth all the wrinkles? We shall see, and hope for the best!
That' OK! It was interesting! The traditional vs. "new math" is a debate that everyone with children will be having for many many years... I hope you are right - that the children being taught the "new math" now will eventually do better later. Their teachers have always reassured me that this will be the case. I can see how it would be wonderful in a small setting, or homeshool setting, but in a large class situation it feels chaotic. I always make a point to spend time in my kids classrooms during math time on a regular basis (so that I can understand what they are doing) and it's a bit crazy! Other schools districts have already tried the new math and decided to go back to the more traditional math curriculums. For several years now the recent high school graduates who grew up with the new math have had to take remedial math classes before they began taking college level math. Anyway... maybe it's just taking awhile to smooth all the wrinkles? We shall see, and hope for the best!
I think in order for it to work you have to have parents willing to work with the kids on their homework and MAKE SURE they are solidifying those concepts because a teacher with 23+ kids in the classroom just simply can't do that and that's where the problem lies. If a child has the concepts down pat before moving on, they will do amazing. But if they can't quite grasp it and no one is there to work with them until they do, the teacher isn't going to hold the entire class back for them. That gap will always be there for that child and that's where the downward spiral for them in math starts. It's not the teacher's fault necesarily. Parents need to be involved and KNOW that their child GETS IT and they will do really well with this type of math. I think maybe that's why many school systems don't adopt this "new" math, because it depends on mastery and there are many parents who just don't spend enough time helping with homework or volunteering. It may not be better, but I can see how it is easier to stick with the old ways. But, we don't live in a perfect world, unfortunately.
I used a program called Math-U-See with my son this year and it uses this mastery concept rather than spiral. He floated through the first (addition) and second (subtraction) levels VERY quickly! There were concerns with other parents that intended on sending their kids back to public school (as I plan to do once we get moved...long story) that their kids would be behind because some of the concepts that kids START learning in earlier grades are held off until it fits in logically with where the kids are in their understanding of math. I personally think my son is pretty well prepared and haven't seen any gaps with the exception of fractions, which we are working on now and is a level or two higher than he's expected to be at his age. It's not really explained much until division, which makes perfect sense, in my opinion. I didn't bother trying to teach him fractions even with the pie pictures or anything because I knew the minute I taught him about "sharing" (division) it would click very quickly. Made no sense to try and teach him a concept he didn't have something to associate it with.
Once again...I'm sorry this was so long! LOL!
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The traditional vs. "new math" is a debate that everyone with children will be having for many many years... I hope you are right - that the children being taught the "new math" now will eventually do better later. Their teachers have always reassured me that this will be the case. I can see how it would be wonderful in a small setting, or homeshool setting, but in a large class situation it feels chaotic. I always make a point to spend time in my kids classrooms during math time on a regular basis (so that I can understand what they are doing) and it's a bit crazy! Other schools districts have already tried the new math and decided to go back to the more traditional math curriculums. For several years now the recent high school graduates who grew up with the new math have had to take remedial math classes before they began taking college level math. Anyway... maybe it's just taking awhile to smooth all the wrinkles? We shall see, and hope for the best! 
