What is the downside to living in Oregon? (Portland, Astoria: home, unemployment)

[Larry Caldwell]

Originally Posted by Ravie

I'm only on page two in my reading here, and I haven't heard on person defend the crazy environmentalists... It's because of those crazy environmentalists that there aren't "more" clear cuts around the state. I was just talking to a girl at work who just visted there...she said she would be riding along on a road.... and there would be beautiful forest...then suddenly, giant clear-cut fields.

Since you are from Kansas, here is some perspective for you. Imagine that everything west of Wichita belongs to the federal government. Other than renting some land to cattle ranchers for pasture, the land is completely nonproductive, thanks to a bunch of rabid environmentalists, who even oppose raising cattle on the land. Imagine that the feds are busily removing roads, so if people even want to look at the land, they have to walk.

The clear cuts your friend saw were all on private land, where trees are grown as a crop, just like a field of wheat or corn. They will be replanted the following winter, and within 15 years will be a closed canopy forest. The harvest cycle varies from 50 to 90 years, depending on the desired product. The dominant species in Western Oregon, Douglas Fir, will not regenerate under a closed canopy. Clear cutting most closely mimics the catastrophic fires that created douglas fir forests in the first place.

Some forests have been logged many times. Boise Cascade pioneered replanting in Oregon in 1917, and the citizens of Oregon passed a bond measure to reforest the Tillamook Burn in 1937.

Originally Posted by Ravie

I understand that the world needs it's paper and it's wood, and that Oregon has a lot of wood to give to that...but someday, after people have cut it all down, you and your children and grandchildren will have no jobs in the timber industry, cause it takes a LONG time to get those trees back. Why do you think they call it old growth?

That is an excellent question. I often wonder why they call trees old growth, when they obviously are not. Here is the definition from the US Forest Service glossary:

Old growth- Stands of forest trees of either seral or climax species growing singly or in association with other tree species. The stands are usually well past the age of maturity as defined by the culmination of mean annual increment and often exhibit characteristics of decadence. These characteristics may include, but are not limited to: low growth rates, dead and dying trees, snags, and down woody material. The stands are usually characterized by large diameter trees relative to species and site potential, multi-layered canopies, a range in tree diameter sizes, and the presence of understory vegetation. The specific attributes of an old-growth stand are primarily dependent on plant associations and forest cover type.

Does that match your mental picture of "old growth"?

Originally Posted by Ravie

Maybe I'm just reading people wrong and I'm yelling for no reason. But, if not...I really wonder why people would think the crazy environmentalists are really so crazy.

Primarily because they approach nature like a religion instead of becoming informed. 99% of the people with an opinion about Oregon forests have never set foot on the land, and want to manage it according to a mental fantasy rather than reality. That's delusional, just about as crazy as it gets. Even fewer have lived on the land long enough to view it as a living, ever-changing thing. Your co-worker developed her opinion by driving past in a car, not even realizing that the beautiful forest and the clear cuts were all part of the same forest.

Oregon still has millions and millions of acres of healthy forest, much of which you can't even get to except on foot. You would be amazed.

[lizwidi]

Hmmm.. Oregon is a beautiful place.. Especially if you got a "green thumb".. The only down side I see to Oregon is that it's so big it takes forever to drive to another state.. As a born and bred Oregonian i haven't had too many opportunities to explore other states as much as I'd like.. But Oregon is Great ! We got the best of it all. Beach, Mountains, Desert, Valley. : )

[chattypatty]

I don't know why some natives get so defensive about the rain! Yes it DOES rain a lot in western Oregon. I once read a quote by some smart ass that the average annual rainfall in Georgia is much higher than the average annual rainfall in Oregon -- well, that doesn't mean a thing. Georgia has thunder storms with violent rain, but only sometimes and only during certain seasons, whereas Oregon drizzles rain almost every damn day for 10 months and when it doesn't rain, it's grey, cloudy and overcast. I have never had a July 4th that wasn't rained out. Generally, you can start looking for the sun about the middle of July, but be prepared to say goodbye to it by the end of September. I've lived here for 27 years -- don't lie to the folks who come to citydata.com looking for honest information!

The upside to all the rain is that the city always looks fresh and clean like it's just "stepped out of the shower," and that's unusual for a city of any size, much less a major city like Portland. Also, you wouldn't have all the lush green without the rain. The waterfront area along the river in downtown Portland is just gorgeous.

If you are coming from the east coast or from California, the Oregonians, at least at the cash registers in the stores, will seem kind of dumb and slow. I moved to Portland from LA and this took some getting used to. After spending a little time in harried NYC, I came to appreciate the slow but usually friendly Oregonians.

People complain a lot about the schools, but like anywhere, you can find good ones and the good neighborhoods have the best schools. The state university system could be better, and Portland State University in downtown Portland is absolutely substandard.

Traffic has gotten pretty congested in recent years but the drivers are more or less polite. It is nice not to have to pump your own gas, though.

One thing that may have been mentioned already (I didn't have time to read all the comments) is that if you live in the Portland area, you are only about an hour to the ocean or the mountains (in opposite directions). It also doesn't take long to get out to a rural area and have a nice drive in some farmland. Oregon is truly an outdoorsman's paradise. There is a lot to do here if you are outdoorsy, though you have to not mind doing it while wet! I admit one thing that annoys the hell out of me is seeing Oregonians wearing shorts and tee shirts in the middle of winter. I've never understood that and I've lived here a long time.

Last but not least, Portland has the largest bookstore in America, Powell's books. It's almost the only reason you need to live here!

[jiffin4java]

Originally Posted by chattypatty

I don't know why some natives get so defensive about the rain! Yes it DOES rain a lot in western Oregon. I once read a quote by some smart ass that the average annual rainfall in Georgia is much higher than the average annual rainfall in Oregon -- well, that doesn't mean a thing. Georgia has thunder storms with violent rain, but only sometimes and only during certain seasons, whereas Oregon drizzles rain almost every damn day for 10 months and when it doesn't rain, it's grey, cloudy and overcast. I have never had a July 4th that wasn't rained out. Generally, you can start looking for the sun about the middle of July, but be prepared to say goodbye to it by the end of September. I've lived here for 27 years -- don't lie to the folks who come to citydata.com looking for honest information!

The upside to all the rain is that the city always looks fresh and clean like it's just "stepped out of the shower," and that's unusual for a city of any size, much less a major city like Portland. Also, you wouldn't have all the lush green without the rain. The waterfront area along the river in downtown Portland is just gorgeous.

If you are coming from the east coast or from California, the Oregonians, at least at the cash registers in the stores, will seem kind of dumb and slow. I moved to Portland from LA and this took some getting used to. After spending a little time in harried NYC, I came to appreciate the slow but usually friendly Oregonians.

People complain a lot about the schools, but like anywhere, you can find good ones and the good neighborhoods have the best schools. The state university system could be better, and Portland State University in downtown Portland is absolutely substandard.

Traffic has gotten pretty congested in recent years but the drivers are more or less polite. It is nice not to have to pump your own gas, though.

One thing that may have been mentioned already (I didn't have time to read all the comments) is that if you live in the Portland area, you are only about an hour to the ocean or the mountains (in opposite directions). It also doesn't take long to get out to a rural area and have a nice drive in some farmland. Oregon is truly an outdoorsman's paradise. There is a lot to do here if you are outdoorsy, though you have to not mind doing it while wet! I admit one thing that annoys the hell out of me is seeing Oregonians wearing shorts and tee shirts in the middle of winter. I've never understood that and I've lived here a long time.

Last but not least, Portland has the largest bookstore in America, Powell's books. It's almost the only reason you need to live here!

Thanks for your post! We're sitting here in Texas counting the days until my hubby is done with air traffic control school and hopefully heading to Oregon. I didn't know Portland had the largest bookstore in America! My husband will be in absolute Heaven! As for myself....I'm in love with rain. Always have been, always will be. I grew up in Michigan where impressive thunderstorms were common. I was SO dissappointed that we didn't get much rain in Northern CA and when we did there was very RARELY a storm. Do you get much thunder up there? Even so, at least I'll have rain.

[lifes2short]

Powells is not the largest bookstore, but rather the largest independent bookstore. Great place though!

We do not get much thunder here at all. We have lived all over the US compliments of the military, so definitely know how weather can vary from area to area.

We have not had a 4th of July rained out in a long time, but it is the local joke that summer does not begin til July 5th When we lived in Seattle, we used to come down here to visit family so that we could have a dry 4th. It is usually pretty cold still. Our street does a big event every year and we are always out there in sweatshirts and blankets, but that doesn't put a damper on it at all.

[jiffin4java]

Originally Posted by lifes2short

Powells is not the largest bookstore, but rather the largest independent bookstore. Great place though!

We do not get much thunder here at all. We have lived all over the US compliments of the military, so definitely know how weather can vary from area to area.

We have not had a 4th of July rained out in a long time, but it is the local joke that summer does not begin til July 5th When we lived in Seattle, we used to come down here to visit family so that we could have a dry 4th. It is usually pretty cold still. Our street does a big event every year and we are always out there in sweatshirts and blankets, but that doesn't put a damper on it at all.

It all sounds good to me still! I'm really looking forward to it.

[furyu]

Originally Posted by Ravie

I'm only on page two in my reading here, and I haven't heard on person defend the crazy environmentalists... It's because of those crazy environmentalists that there aren't "more" clear cuts around the state. I was just talking to a girl at work who just visted there...she said she would be riding along on a road.... and there would be beautiful forest...then suddenly, giant clear-cut fields.

Well, I will defend the environmentalists! And proudly include myself among them. Of course we are called 'crazy' by those that don't--and can't--understand the higher issue of caring for the earth. Those that oppose environmentalism are the same low-minded folk that think all that matters in this world is acquiring money and possessions. Their preferred mode of living and thinking revolves around 'feeling good' which only lasts as long as their latest acquisition's newness lasts --a day or two-- and then POOF, it's old, it's used, I'm bored! So, it's on to the next 'feel-good acquisition.' And so on and so on. They have not evolved as some have, those who understand that we are only here on this precious blue sphere for a very short time and have no business using, abusing, or destroying it. Whereas we should live in accord with nature and leave the smallest of footprints possible, if any at all, we are instead stomping it into a toxic waste site.

Originally Posted by Ravie

I understand that the world needs it's paper and it's wood, and that Oregon has a lot of wood to give to that...but someday, after people have cut it all down, you and your children and grandchildren will have no jobs in the timber industry, cause it takes a LONG time to get those trees back. Why do you think they call it old growth?

We can have our paper and our wood without continuing to destroy our remaining forests. By recycling and by developing new ways of doing things, we can reduce and ultimately eliminate the practices and methods that detrimentally impact the earth. Just think of how much less paper is needed now that we have the internet and computers! Homes are being built with man-made materials that don't solely rely on wood, or else use 'greener' woods that are easily replenishable. There are so many NEW ways of doing things, and it's very exciting. Environmentalists think in new ways while those opposed to these new ways--for fear of their economical losses, remain stuck-in-the-mud of wrong thinking and outdated ideas.

One of the anti-environmentalist here stated there was no way Oregon could ever run out of trees and lumber. Proof positive of the limited, clueless thinking and short-sightedness of these folk. Destroying one tree or a thousand trees is not just about leaving a space on the ground, or a blight on the scenery as people whiz by in their cars. Each tree destroyed has an immediate impact on the fauna and flora that depends on it, providing protection and habitat for wildlife and supporting the growth of other flora. It affects the overall production of oxygen in the air, and the reduction of carbon dioxide (hello: global warming?) and pollutants such as carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide. Each tree helps cool the earth, acts as a windbreak and fights soil erosion. Each tree is important to the health of the earth.

And we're not just talking Oregon, or at least shouldn't be. There are massive amounts of 'wild areas' being destroyed ever minute of the day throughout the world which is affecting each and every one of us, further degrading our environment, and destroying or imperiling all living things. To deny this is happening is, well, stupid.

Another one of these know-it-alls stated that 'clear cuts only occur on private lands'. Well, that is currently true but that wasn't always the case and if the Bush Admin. had had its way last year, much of our federally owned land, that is to say, the land owned by every citizen of this county, would have been sold off in huge parcels to the highest bidders. That could still happen in the future if we elect another Republican who literally cannot see the forest for the trees. Or even a Democrat who sits comfortably in the pockets of Corporate America. Or if we environmentalists and other 'squeaky wheels' let down our guard or stop with our attempts to wake everybody up!

Originally Posted by Ravie

Maybe I'm just reading people wrong and I'm yelling for no reason. But, if not...I really wonder why people would think the crazy environmentalists are really so crazy.

You're not reading these posters wrong. I don't often come here because so many here, especially the ones that apparently have nothing better to do but post, are soooo Neanderthal-ish. And there is no arguing with them because you can state all the facts in the world that show how ridiculous their views are and they'll still keep barking and yapping that you're a liberal and thus a socialist and if you're a socialist you must be an atheist; you're probably gay too, and definitely you're a sushi-eater. You're downright anti-American! You don't support our troops that we send into illegal wars to die so that we can keep "our" oil wells producing and our Hummers' tanks full. Nope, you just don't get our "A-Merry-Ka" so why don't you just move to Canada?

Let's face it, Al Gore was --and still is-- seen as 'crazy' as are all of the other so-called liberals that run around telling people, "we're killing ourselves with our greed. We need to change, or at least TWEAK our ways of doing things." Well, don't tell these people that they must change if it means giving up their super-sized portions of food, gasoline, and the latest greatest plastic gadget. They say "no way, Jose, and get back over the border before I kick your illegal butt!" All the while, waving their flags and thumping their bibles.

Crazy is oftened defined as 'being out of the ordinary.' Indeed, environmentalist, being in the minority, are out of the ordinary. But the really insane people are the ones that can't see what's happening. They blindly believe what their politicos and their greedy egos tell them about the earth's resources, that it's here only for their own immediate profit and pleasure; in fact, God planned it that way, gave them this Garden of Eden to use any way they see fit. Andy anyway, it all grows back, doesn't it? Yeah, sooner or later, so ... no harm no foul. And if it doesn't, their kids and their grandkids and future generations thereafter won't miss what they never knew anyway.

Fortunately, the Al Gores of the world have gotten their message through to many in recent years, and every day more are starting to listen. Or wake up. Thus, global climate change is being accepted as a truth by more people who are now thinking about how they can help reverse the trend. And doing something about it, even if that is only changing the light bulb they use. Clear cutting large areas of forests affects our local and our global climate. If it weren't for the environmentalists who kept repeating that message over & over & over & over again despite repression and ridicule by the right wing wrong doers, there wouldn't now be an attempt to start turning things around. The sad thing is, it may be too late.

[freedom]

Furyu,

That was a great post, and had some accurate things to say about consumption and greed, of which I agree that these are not noble or sustainable traits, and as they are on the extreme right of the orb. There are also the counter parts called the extreme lefts.

I assume you live in a house of wood or stone or a combination thereof. I assume you drive some sort of transport and do your best to leave the smallest footprint possible. What is impossible is to not leave a footprint until you have mastered levitation, and perfection. Which I believe both to be possible.

All things on this earth are a gift to us, to use, abuse, and learn and grow by. We are all given the freedom or free-doom to choose how we will imprint this earth. What I object to is taking that freedom away from the individual experience and branding people as ignorant or greedy when they are desirous of comforts, shelter, and the pursuit of happiness. This is a large planet, we imprint here in Oregon 5% of it. Every area of the world has its resource and its lack thereof. Using a resource is not a sin, it is a blessing. How we use it will be to our credit or our doom. We are a society of growing and learning. When the practices of the past no longer work, we change with the times and the earth is forgiving to us and gives us latitude. It is a tug of war between extremes, and hopefully balance wins out, and understanding becomes a common thread.

freedom

[Aldo76]

Just to note that the McMansion problem is nationwide. My brother reports that they are on hillsides throughout New England. There it's city folk from Boston-New York. I think the most offensive McMansions I saw in Oregon were along the coast (Yachats comes to mind: picture big Tuscan villas clinging to a sheer bluff above a small town right on the coast). If you are from anywhere else, the natives can be quite unfriendly at first. I was treated rudely by store clerks & waitresses in several locations. I still think Oregon is a good place to live, especially if you enjoy outdoor activities--hiking, etc. The late fall-winter weather in many areas does take getting used to--SAD lights can help.

[Huckleberry3911948]

Originally Posted by heavens54

Doesn't seem to be too much on the downside from what I hear...maybe lack of jobs? And too much rain for those who don't like rain...a little traffic in Portland at the usual traffic times. Anything else that really bugs you or others about life in OR?

2 horse economy
1/2 population sells dope
other 1/2 trys to catchem doin it.