What happened to the lumber industry? (Portland, Medford: sale, layoffs, buy)

[5thgenSF]

Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell

The lumber industry is not unique. Most of the family wage jobs that supported America during the second half of the 20th century are gone, either automated out of existence or shipped offshore where wages are minimal and nobody cares if a company ruins the environment. Even when they are running, modern mills produce more lumber with 10% of the employees that they needed 30 years ago. All the high volume repetitive tasks have been automated. Even in the woods, one guy running a faller-buncher can do the work that it took a crew of 20 to do in the '70s.

but as far as douglas county is concerned, wasn't that pretty much the only industry here?

[FVWinters]

A number of factors in our declining timber industry:

1. There was a very real concern we would cut down all of our old growth forest reserves. I remember having conversations with forestry experts on the state of our vanishing old growth as far back as 1968 when I was attending college, so the situation has been evolving for a lot longer than 15 years. Many of the mills in western Oregon as well as that giant of a stud and plank mill in Hines (of all places - 90 miles from the nearest tree) were built in an era where "Old Growth" was still relatively plentiful. Retooling or rebuilding these mills has been prohibitively expensive, even impossible as the virgin stuff ran out.

2. There have been whispers from environmental groups from long before Environmentalism has become such a hot topic today. Would you believe the Sierra Club was founded in 1892? They were but one example. The Environmentalists started gaining a voice in the 30's through early 60's (Rachael Carlson wrote her Silent Spring in 1962 and Paul Erlich's Population Bomb in '64) which slowly got stronger. It was during the 60's that congress passed the Wilderness Act and presidents from both political parties placed additional lands under its protection. And it was in the late '60's through early 70's that the environmental movement gained enough critical mass to have a voice in the disposition of our timber reserves. Since then environmental activism has shut down a number of timber sales and has also delayed or cancelled logging in other areas still open. On a personal note, I was a logger myself for a while and probably the happiest time in my life was spent in the woods. I earned more money at that time than any since until about 1995 but I also saw the handwriting on the wall and by 1972 hung up my chainsaw and "tin pants" for good.

3. The U.S. is not the only country with a lot of timber. Canada has an absolute gob of trees even though they were no more frugal with their old growth than we. And as ours is, their timber industry is also hurting. But for reasons I can't fathom it seems cheaper to buy a processed log from Canada than cut it down and work it ourselves. With profit margins as important as they seem to be at present, it's a no brainer to import from the Canadians (or Chinese or Russians or......you get the picture).

4. We don't just import, either. Before "The Crash" we sent about three trees overseas for every one we processed at home. Given the progressively fewer number of trees companies were allowed (or even able) to knock down to begin with, the share allotted to our mills was even smaller yet. Many have closed down and several oregon towns (Idanha as an example) have been left with no economic base at all.

5. Something not given much mention is the degree of automation found in many of the mills today. One person sitting in a control booth can grade and saw a log in less time than it once took several people to do. Even timber harvest has been given over to mass mechanical processes. My wife and I once watched a vehicle the size of a large road grader with this six foot in diameter circular saw attached to the front knock down more two and three foot trees in the fifteen minutes we stood watching it than a crew of loggers could in two days.

6. And then we have the Owls (and Marbled Murrelets), USFS regs, NAFTA, EPA and all that which does as much to knock out the mom 'n' pop operations as anything else.

This is not limited to Oregon. I'm seeing the same thing in California, Washington, Idaho.....and Maine and South Carolina.

[5thgenSF]

awesome post!

[Larry Caldwell]

Originally Posted by 5thgenSF

but as far as douglas county is concerned, wasn't that pretty much the only industry here?

Lumber was the major industry, but not the only industry. Bayliner had a big plant in Wilbur. It closed during the recession and was sold off. Alcan made insulated aluminum cable and has 99% closed, though they reopened the plant last winter for a special order. I think North River is still making some boats in Winston, though their sales organization folded when the founder went crazy and shotgunned his girlfriend in front of witnesses. Dell ran a call center in Roseburg for about 5 years, and employed about 1200 people at an average $40k a year. That was an average. I worked for them for a while, and made $37k in 3 months during the 2003 Christmas season. I was far from the best salesman. Their top sales guy made over $100k a year. We parted company because my wife's mother died and they wouldn't let me take the vacation time I had earned to be with family.

All of those jobs are gone, and the only ones that might come back are at AlCan. Maybe. Convey-Keystone is still out on Chestnut, but far from running at capacity. They might hire another 40 welders and machinists someday. Things are really pretty bleak in Douglas County.

[5thgenSF]

Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell

Lumber was the major industry, but not the only industry. Bayliner had a big plant in Wilbur. It closed during the recession and was sold off. Alcan made insulated aluminum cable and has 99% closed, though they reopened the plant last winter for a special order. I think North River is still making some boats in Winston, though their sales organization folded when the founder went crazy and shotgunned his girlfriend in front of witnesses. Dell ran a call center in Roseburg for about 5 years, and employed about 1200 people at an average $40k a year. That was an average. I worked for them for a while, and made $37k in 3 months during the 2003 Christmas season. I was far from the best salesman. Their top sales guy made over $100k a year. We parted company because my wife's mother died and they wouldn't let me take the vacation time I had earned to be with family.

All of those jobs are gone, and the only ones that might come back are at AlCan. Maybe. Convey-Keystone is still out on Chestnut, but far from running at capacity. They might hire another 40 welders and machinists someday. Things are really pretty bleak in Douglas County.

you did great at dell. i had looked at that before i moved here and the job listing only said part-time. then after i was here, i interviewed twice and wasn't hired. it was pretty sad that they closed the way they did, leaving everybody standing outside in pajamas! i remember reading about the employees that were suing for employer violations. do you remember if that case was finalized? i never heard an outcome.

[Larry Caldwell]

Yeah, the guy who started the class action was Walt Romas, the guy I was mentioning as their #1 salesman. We were hired together and became good friends. He is a great guy. The irritating thing about Dell was that they only paid you for the time you spent logged into the system. They expected you to attend sales meetings, training sessions, etc. on your own time. On the average they nicked us for 2 hours of unpaid overtime every day. Working conditions were horrible. Your schedule was set by a computer in Round Rocks, with no consideration for local conditions.

Dell rolled over and settled on the lawsuit. If Walt was suing me, I wouldn't put him in front of a jury either. He is the legendary salesman who could sell ice cubes to Eskimos. He has a fabulous voice that makes you want to believe everything he is saying. The great thing is that he would never shade the facts to make a sale. I'm sure that, wherever he is now, Walt is doing just fine. I got a check in the mail for unpaid overtime, including a pittance for the company's 401k contribution, which cost them a small fortune to process since I had already closed the account.

For an interesting postscript, I was talking to an employment department employee after Dell closed and she mentioned that most of the UI recipients dragged it out to the bitter end before doing a serious job search, but not Dell employees. They averaged one month on unemployment, and some of them had jobs before the ink was dry on their application. They were some of the brightest, most motivated people I have ever worked with. It's sorry the management was not up to their standard.

[5thgenSF]

Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell

Yeah, the guy who started the class action was Walt Romas, the guy I was mentioning as their #1 salesman. We were hired together and became good friends. He is a great guy. The irritating thing about Dell was that they only paid you for the time you spent logged into the system. They expected you to attend sales meetings, training sessions, etc. on your own time. On the average they nicked us for 2 hours of unpaid overtime every day. Working conditions were horrible. Your schedule was set by a computer in Round Rocks, with no consideration for local conditions.

Dell rolled over and settled on the lawsuit. If Walt was suing me, I wouldn't put him in front of a jury either. He is the legendary salesman who could sell ice cubes to Eskimos. He has a fabulous voice that makes you want to believe everything he is saying. The great thing is that he would never shade the facts to make a sale. I'm sure that, wherever he is now, Walt is doing just fine. I got a check in the mail for unpaid overtime, including a pittance for the company's 401k contribution, which cost them a small fortune to process since I had already closed the account.

For an interesting postscript, I was talking to an employment department employee after Dell closed and she mentioned that most of the UI recipients dragged it out to the bitter end before doing a serious job search, but not Dell employees. They averaged one month on unemployment, and some of them had jobs before the ink was dry on their application. They were some of the brightest, most motivated people I have ever worked with. It's sorry the management was not up to their standard.

that is interesting. and i'm amazed that they did find jobs so quickly. especially considering the salaries that a lot of them made. i had read about the crap they pulled on employees. you'd think a company that big would know better. but the car i'm driving now was paid for by a class action suit from a former employer. a very unexpected and very needed windfall.

so your buddy left roseburg?

[jimj]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

Owl
Greenies
EPA
NAFTA (Canadian Imports, better and cheaper)
Lower Production costs in China (milling/paper/chemical)
USFS rif's the forest managers
USFS contract regulations


3 strikes and your OUT. with the seven strikes above you're WORSE than OUT... Crippled for life

THINK... all the above are related to POLITICS, NOT Environment or community Economic Development / sound business principles

OREGON vote is controlled by persons W/O a timber (or business) interest. Most voters are 'employees / students/ retired / unemployed' NOT job creators, farmers (timber or otherwise).

Same thing happened in Montana, for all intensive purposes it killed the lumber industry and many dreams of a decent life right along with it.

[Terryj]

The majority of logging done in Oregon these days are done on private lands, which isn't much. Old growth timber really isn't worth the effort to log it, most of it has speckled rot and not able to be used as lumber. The rape and pillage of timber as in the past is long gone, timber companies today understand the need for good timber management and how to get the most out of their timber. Government land is very poor quality timber due to very poor timber management, the ole saying "use it or you lose it" applies here. Most timber companies will shy away from government timber sales, the hoops they make you jump through just to get the sale is exhausting and then the timber isn't that good, allot of cull logs not much good for anything but firewood. But on the bright side of it, mother nature will harvest it for them.

[Deezus]

Originally Posted by FVWinters

A number of factors in our declining timber industry:

1. There was a very real concern we would cut down all of our old growth forest reserves. I remember having conversations with forestry experts on the state of our vanishing old growth as far back as 1968 when I was attending college, so the situation has been evolving for a lot longer than 15 years. Many of the mills in western Oregon as well as that giant of a stud and plank mill in Hines (of all places - 90 miles from the nearest tree) were built in an era where "Old Growth" was still relatively plentiful. Retooling or rebuilding these mills has been prohibitively expensive, even impossible as the virgin stuff ran out.

2. There have been whispers from environmental groups from long before Environmentalism has become such a hot topic today. Would you believe the Sierra Club was founded in 1892? They were but one example. The Environmentalists started gaining a voice in the 30's through early 60's (Rachael Carlson wrote her Silent Spring in 1962 and Paul Erlich's Population Bomb in '64) which slowly got stronger. It was during the 60's that congress passed the Wilderness Act and presidents from both political parties placed additional lands under its protection. And it was in the late '60's through early 70's that the environmental movement gained enough critical mass to have a voice in the disposition of our timber reserves. Since then environmental activism has shut down a number of timber sales and has also delayed or cancelled logging in other areas still open. On a personal note, I was a logger myself for a while and probably the happiest time in my life was spent in the woods. I earned more money at that time than any since until about 1995 but I also saw the handwriting on the wall and by 1972 hung up my chainsaw and "tin pants" for good.

3. The U.S. is not the only country with a lot of timber. Canada has an absolute gob of trees even though they were no more frugal with their old growth than we. And as ours is, their timber industry is also hurting. But for reasons I can't fathom it seems cheaper to buy a processed log from Canada than cut it down and work it ourselves. With profit margins as important as they seem to be at present, it's a no brainer to import from the Canadians (or Chinese or Russians or......you get the picture).

4. We don't just import, either. Before "The Crash" we sent about three trees overseas for every one we processed at home. Given the progressively fewer number of trees companies were allowed (or even able) to knock down to begin with, the share allotted to our mills was even smaller yet. Many have closed down and several oregon towns (Idanha as an example) have been left with no economic base at all.

5. Something not given much mention is the degree of automation found in many of the mills today. One serson sitting in a control booth can grade and saw a log in less time than it once took several people to do. Even timber harvest has been given over to mass mechanical processes. My wife and I once watched a vehicle the size of a large road grader with this six foot in diameter circular saw attached to the front knock down more two and three foot trees in the fifteen minutes we stood watching it than a crew of loggers could in two days.

6. And then we have the Owls (and Marbled Murrelets), USFS regs, NAFTA, EPA and all that which does as much to knock out the mom 'n' pop operations as anything else.

This is not limited to Oregon. I'm seeing the same thing in California, Washington, Idaho.....and Maine and South Carolina.

Great post. My grandfather was a company man with Georgia Pacific for over 40 years. Worked his way up to mid-managment and moved around from Northern California(Arcata, Samoa, Oroville, Feather Falls) to Pendleton, Oregon and then Portland. He retired in 1982 when the economic recession in the late 70s/early 80s hit and a lot of the Northwestern mills were closing in the first wave to hit the industry---and just prior to when Georgia Pacific moved their headquarters to Atlanta from Portland. Back in the 1950s and 1960s in much of Northern California, it was about the same as Oregon--everyone worked in the lumber industry in many towns--my grandfather and great uncles worked for a good chunk of thier lives for Georgia Pacific right out of high school. My dad and uncles all worked summers in the mills---all the way up through college.

3. The U.S. is not the only country with a lot of timber. Canada has an absolute gob of trees even though they were no more frugal with their old growth than we. And as ours is, their timber industry is also hurting. But for reasons I can't fathom it seems cheaper to buy a processed log from Canada than cut it down and work it ourselves. With profit margins as important as they seem to be at present, it's a no brainer to import from the Canadians (or Chinese or Russians or......you get the picture).

Isn't it bascially because of the heavy timber subsidies the Canadian government uses to support the industry that it's so much cheaper in terms of costs?