Why is the Oregon unemployment rate so high??? (mortgage, litigation)

[NWPAguy]

I should mention something else about Oregon and its employment situation, as someone just talked about how Nike is headquartered in Beaverton. When I lived out there, unemployment was off the charts but Nike gave a $90 MILLION endorsement contract to LeBron James. That isn't a typo... NINETY MILLION DOLLARS, to a guy who does absolutely nothing more productive for society except throw a 9-inch ball through an 18-inch hoop with finesse. You can train a seal to do that, and I know this because I've seen seals do it.

For ninety million dollars, given to a dude who sure as heck didn't need it, Nike could've hired 3,000 hard-working Oregonians at $30,000/year for an entire year. But no, they throw ninety million at LeBron James. This is the biggest reason why I will not buy Nike shoes anymore. (I used to wear them all the time.) A lot of time, a driving force behind unemployment is companies which are operated by people whose heads are shoved so far up their butts that they have no prayer of seeing the light of day.

[kanhawk]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

I should mention something else about Oregon and its employment situation, as someone just talked about how Nike is headquartered in Beaverton. When I lived out there, unemployment was off the charts but Nike gave a $90 MILLION endorsement contract to LeBron James. That isn't a typo... NINETY MILLION DOLLARS, to a guy who does absolutely nothing more productive for society except throw a 9-inch ball through an 18-inch hoop with finesse. You can train a seal to do that, and I know this because I've seen seals do it.

For ninety million dollars, given to a dude who sure as heck didn't need it, Nike could've hired 3,000 hard-working Oregonians at $30,000/year for an entire year. But no, they throw ninety million at LeBron James. This is the biggest reason why I will not buy Nike shoes anymore. (I used to wear them all the time.) A lot of time, a driving force behind unemployment is companies which are operated by people whose heads are shoved so far up their butts that they have no prayer of seeing the light of day.

Nike also ships a lot of it's jobs overseas to Vietnam and Indonesia, does it not? Which would be fine, but I thought Phil Knight was suppose to be some big time liberal socially progressive guy. You'd think he'd want to support his socially and politically liberal state by providing more working class jobs in the state instead of having it done in the 3rd world at slave wages. Or maybe he's just a hypocrite

[NWPAguy]

At the risk of sounding like an ignoramus, I have no idea who Phil Knight is. From what you said, it sounds like he's some big wig with the Nike corporation... be that as it may, liberals usually ARE hypocrites, and I am prepared to back that up.

I read statistics on the last Presidential election which said that, approximately speaking, ~70% of people with annual income below $30,000 voted Democratic while ~70% of people with annual income above $30,000 voted Republican. Although this is not always the case, the Republican party generally favors smaller government, less socialism, and lower taxes. The Democratic party generally favors larger government, more socialism, and higher taxes. That being said, you'd think that people who weren't on the dole, and who made a lot of money which could be taxed away, would all be Republicans. The statistics show that a lot of them are... and who knows how many more of them would be Republicans if Republicans and Democrats agreed on ALL other issues aside from taxes and the like. I've run into some wealthy people who voted Democratic, and when I asked about the whole issue of taxation, it came down to "well, we can afford it". I ask you this, though... have you ever encountered a Democrat who didn't take as many tax deductions as he/she could? NOBODY wants their money robbed from them... and taxation is just legalized robbery. I couldn't name one Democrat who would still give money to the government if taxes were suddenly repealed. They'd still put their money toward supporting causes in which they believe, but they'd do it on their own terms.

When it comes to jobs and wages and whatever, this is a classic case of hypocrisy. Out of one side of their mouths, these people will tubthump for higher minimum wages... and out of the other side, they'll strike deals with Third World countries to produce their goods for pennies on the dollar.

I think that America has a classic problem with hubris... and anyone who studied literature in high school and/or college understands that hubris is a tragic flaw. America has been THE superpower for centuries... practically since its inception. Americans, even from my young generation, have grown up believing that America was practically indestructible. We've never lost a war (even though it can't seriously be argued that we WON the Vietnam war), we have the world's largest economy, and we have the highest standard of living of any country in the world. Americans are taking it for granted that they'll always live in the world's foremost superpower country, and that Third World countries will always be Third World countries. This isn't the case. America is selling out to the rest of the world, to the tune of (from what I read) $1,000,000,000 per day. ONE BILLION DOLLARS A DAY. If we looked inward instead of outward for our solutions, we'd find them right here... but if we continue to sell out, there will come a time when America will no longer be the world's foremost superpower... and then all of the countries that have held grudges against America for who knows how long will find themselves in a position to get their revenge. That's going to be a sad day in the Kingdom.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

I should mention something else about Oregon and its employment situation, as someone just talked about how Nike is headquartered in Beaverton. When I lived out there, unemployment was off the charts but Nike gave a $90 MILLION endorsement contract to LeBron James. That isn't a typo... NINETY MILLION DOLLARS, to a guy who does absolutely nothing more productive for society except throw a 9-inch ball through an 18-inch hoop with finesse. You can train a seal to do that, and I know this because I've seen seals do it.

For ninety million dollars, given to a dude who sure as heck didn't need it, Nike could've hired 3,000 hard-working Oregonians at $30,000/year for an entire year. But no, they throw ninety million at LeBron James. This is the biggest reason why I will not buy Nike shoes anymore. (I used to wear them all the time.) A lot of time, a driving force behind unemployment is companies which are operated by people whose heads are shoved so far up their butts that they have no prayer of seeing the light of day.

I haven't bought anything from Nike in years and I guess now I don't think I should.

There is very little "trickle down" in this situation. The trickle down method would be that an industry would provide plentiful jobs, but it doesn't always come to pass. Unfortunately, wherever people can make the bggest buck, they'll do it. Nike uses Lebron James' name because most basketball fans look to him. His named is considered valuable. That is why they pay him so much, so they can make money off of his name. People will buy Nike if they see a big celebrity using Nike. That's advertising.

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

I think that America has a classic problem with hubris... and anyone who studied literature in high school and/or college understands that hubris is a tragic flaw. America has been THE superpower for centuries... practically since its inception. Americans, even from my young generation, have grown up believing that America was practically indestructible. We've never lost a war (even though it can't seriously be argued that we WON the Vietnam war), we have the world's largest economy, and we have the highest standard of living of any country in the world. Americans are taking it for granted that they'll always live in the world's foremost superpower country, and that Third World countries will always be Third World countries. This isn't the case. America is selling out to the rest of the world, to the tune of (from what I read) $1,000,000,000 per day. ONE BILLION DOLLARS A DAY. If we looked inward instead of outward for our solutions, we'd find them right here... but if we continue to sell out, there will come a time when America will no longer be the world's foremost superpower... and then all of the countries that have held grudges against America for who knows how long will find themselves in a position to get their revenge. That's going to be a sad day in the Kingdom.

America is a military superpower. In many areas of education, housing, health care, income distribution, etc. i.e. quality of life America ranks behind many other countries. In fact your statement that America has the highest standard of living in the world is incorrect. America isn't even in the top five. I believe Switzerland is number one. Vancouver, CA (not WA) is third. America's literacy rate is not in the top five. The infant mortality rate is lower than many Third World countries. The income distribution model is also becoming more and more like a Third World bannana republic's. The rest of your paragraph is more or less what I have been saying. It was and is an incredible waste of potential to have squandered the investment in world domination made by earlier generations.

H

[NWPAguy]

America is a military superpower. In many areas of education, housing, health care, income distribution, etc. i.e. quality of life America ranks behind many other countries. In fact your statement that America has the highest standard of living in the world is incorrect. America isn't even in the top five. I believe Switzerland is number one. Vancouver, CA (not WA) is third. America's literacy rate is not in the top five. The infant mortality rate is lower than many Third World countries. The income distribution model is also becoming more and more like a Third World bannana republic's. The rest of your paragraph is more or less what I have been saying. It was and is an incredible waste of potential to have squandered the investment in world domination made by earlier generations.

This sort of depends upon your definition of "standard of living". I'm aware that there are other countries where student performance on standardized tests beats America, life expenctancy beats America, overall happiness beats America, etc. When I say "standard of living", I'm talking about costs of everything vs. salary. Here in America, a doctor can reasonably expect to be able to live in a nice large house, drive a luxury car, and want for no necessities of life due to his salary. Can the same be said for doctors in other countries?

In countries with socialized health care, perhaps people live a couple of years longer... but I'm not sure how much that has to do with access to health care. It may have to do with lifestyle, although I'm really not sure. I read a scientific study not long ago about how skeletal evidence of humans from many centuries ago revealed very low rates of tooth decay. Could that have to do with lower life expectancy? Perhaps, but I've seen plenty of people in their 30s and 40s whose teeth are falling out. (They're all over the place up here!) These days, humans have lots of tooth decay... because of the crap we eat and our poor dental hygiene habits. I'm not anywhere near the best in either of those categories, but that doesn't mean I can't call it as it is. Dental care wasn't anywhere nearly as advanced back in those days, but yet they had less tooth decay. So, maybe people in other countries don't engage in as many vices as Americans do? Maybe it's just good genetics, like in parts of Japan? It'd make for an interesting study.

Be that as it may, I haven't been to a doctor in three years or a dentist in six, because I don't have health insurance and I haven't gotten really sick in three years. There have been times when I've gotten a head cold, and if I had free access to a doctor, I probably would've gone. However, I know myself well enough to know that if I tough it out, the head cold will go away on its own in a few days. So that's what I do, and I haven't had to go to the doctor in three years. I'm not sure I'd want to live somewhere where doctor visits were "free" and anyone could go to the doctor as soon as they discovered a hangnail. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would go to the doctor for the tiniest little thing if it were "free". What would that do to people who actually NEEDED a doctor? They'd have to wait longer... and maybe they'd die in the process. Health care would be more accessible and more affordable if we didn't have blood-sucking tort lawyers in this country who bleed doctors dry when they make the slightest little mistake... and cause malpractice insurance premiums to be in the high 5-figures across the boards. Everyone makes mistakes... and doctors shouldn't be sued for malpractice if they are doing their absolute best to help someone in need. I don't find it surprising at all that there are numerous doctors who refuse to work on lawyers for that very reason. I've heard that America has 5% of the world's population, but 70% of the world's lawyers. What does that say about our system?

[Kristynwy]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

I lived in Oregon (Salem / Independence area) in 2001-2002 when the unemployment rate in Oregon was THE HIGHEST in the country. People were being thrown out of work all the time, and I found myself vying for entry-level computer-field jobs against people with Ph.D's and 15 years of experience.

Everyone who doesn't blame the bleeding-heart liberals for the high unemployment is not thinking through the entire situation very clearly. Let's put it to you this way... America is a great country, and one of the things which makes it great is freedom to move about the states. Most European countries are about the size of one "United State"... so, to move the same equivalent distance in Europe, you'd have to become a naturalized citizen of another country, perhaps learn another language, all that rigamarole! But, here in the USA, you can choose the state in which you live... and the state in which you set up a business. Okay. The federal minimum wage, another socialistic bit of garbage created by the liberals who so quickly forget that a capitalist market will determine its own minimum wage without their interference, is presently something like $5.85 an hour. As I understand it, that is slated to increase this summer and next summer... but for now it's $5.85 an hour. Most low-tax RED STATES do not have their own minimum wage laws which set the minimum wage higher than the federal rate. Oregon's minimum wage, when last I checked the statistics, was $7.95 an hour.

Now... let's do some math. One comment on this thread is that businesses are only interested in their bottom line... as a businessman myself, I can say that that is almost entirely true. You have to take care of your employees and your customers in order to ensure that there always will be a bottom line, but in the end it HAS to come down to the bottom line. If you're not making money, you cannot stay in business. Let's say that YOU are a business owner, looking to buy a building for your business and set up a headquarters somewhere... and it can be anywhere. Let's also say that you intended to have ten employees, in entry-level unskilled positions, working standard 40-hour weeks at minimum wage. What incentive would you have to locate in a state such as Oregon, where your labor costs per week would be ($7.95/hour times 40 hours times 10 employees) = $3,180, when you could locate in a state with no higher minimum wage law, such that the labor cost per week would be ($5.85/hour times 40 hours times 10 employees) = $2,340? The difference, not counting back-end payroll taxes such as Social Security which would make it even larger, is $840/week. Multiply it out... for one entire year, that's approximately $43,800.

Put another way, in a state where employees can legally be paid the federal minimum wage of $5.85/hour, your business could afford to hire 27 full-time workers for the same amount of money that it would cost to hire only 20 full-time workers in Oregon.

Now... maybe you would need to pay more than the minimum wage in order to get good people. That's what I was talking about before, when I said that a capitalist market will determine its own minimum wage. (For example, if there was no federal minimum wage, and nobody would accept a job paying $3.00 an hour, apparently the minimum wage in that market is higher than $3.00 an hour!) I'm taking the issue which drives unemployment, and putting it into simple mathematical terms.

For a different angle on things, I present to you the following lists, gathered from information readily available online. (It's amazing what a Google search can do.) The first list is the top ten states ranked by worst unemployment, along with the minimum wage rate for each state. (Note that Hawaii and Washington, DC were excluded from my consideration due to the lack of complete information on both of those areas.)

1. Michigan- $7.15/hr
2. Alaska- $7.15/hr
3. South Carolina- FEDERAL
4. Mississippi- FEDERAL
5. California- $8.00/hr
6. Rhode Island- $7.40/hr
7. (tie) Illinois- $7.50 (This state is home to Barack Obama, by the way.)
7. (tie) Arkansas- $6.25/hr (Original home state of Bill and Hillary Clinton.)
9. (tie) Oregon- $7.95/hr
9. (tie) Nevada- $6.33/hr
9. (tie) Missouri- $6.65/hr
9. (tie) Ohio- $7.00/hr

Notice how, in these twelve states, only TWO have minimum wage rates equal to the federal minimum. The rest of the states have higher minimum wages... which are generally A LOT higher than the federal minimum. If those minimum wages were lower, companies would be able to hire more workers and unemployment would be lower. This is simple math. (Here is where the bleeding-heart liberals will whine and complain about how people can't live on $5.85 an hour. Lemme tell ya something... out in Africa, they live on one dollar a day. Just because Americans have become spoiled brats and we all expect to have a really high standard of living, being able to live in a mansion and drive a Cadillac on the money we make sweeping floors, that doesn't mean that such a standard of living is our God-given right. Some people will live in mansions and some will live in one-bedroom apartments. Bring your average resident of sub-Saharan Africa to America and give him a minimum-wage job and an average one-bedroom apartment, and he'll think he has gone to heaven! Stop thinking that it is your right to have an inflated standard of living and bring your brain back to earth where it belongs! If someone will accept a job that pays $5.85 an hour, SHUT UP and let him do that job! If he HAD to have more money, he wouldn't accept a job paying $5.85 an hour!!)

This next list shows the states ranked by LOWEST unemployment, and their minimum wage rates.

1. South Dakota- FEDERAL
2. Wyoming- FEDERAL
3. Idaho- FEDERAL
4. Nebraska- FEDERAL
5. Utah- FEDERAL
6. New Mexico- $6.50/hr
7. (tie) North Dakota- FEDERAL
7. (tie) Montana- $6.25/hr
9. Virginia- FEDERAL
10. (tie) Maryland- FEDERAL
10. (tie) New Hampshire- $6.50/hr

Notice how, in these 11 states, only THREE have minimum wage rates higher than the federal minimum... which are generally not much higher than the federal minimum. New Hampshire has very low state taxes, which certainly contributes to low unemployment as people will have more money to spend at businesses which could then hire more employees.

Oregon is a gorgeous state... but the taxes are through the roof, gas prices are among the highest in the country, and that oppressive minimum wage seals the deal. This is why it's hard to get a decent job in Oregon. So, Oregonians, if you want to change this for the better, stop electing redistributionist Marxists into government and start electing people who will level your playing field against the rest of the country. You'll see the jobs come in. People will come in as well... after all, from having lived in Oregon, I can tell you I'd go back in a heartbeat if Oregon became a "red state" and had a better economic climate. I loved the Oregon coast, and the mild weather.

You are right on the money here! We had to leave Oregon for this very reason, this is the state I was raised in also...
My husband was literally kicked out of his Electrical Trade and had to start all over in HVAC so twice the amount of time in schooling because of starting a totally new industry! Oregon needs to let go of it's over regulation and high taxes, or it will always be in the slump it is in as far as employment!
The one industry in Oregon that is growing is state government at a rate of 7% a year! My dad works for the state in the employment sector, and it has been the most secure job he has ever had...

Pretty sad indeed....

This pretty much sealed the deal for us, we will never come back to Oregon again, it would be suicide for us and our finances...

[kanhawk]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

At the risk of sounding like an ignoramus, I have no idea who Phil Knight is. From what you said, it sounds like he's some big wig with the Nike corporation.

Phil Knight is the founder and still Chairman of the Board at Nike Corporation.

[nillawafer]

I haven't read this whole post (I don't have the time right now), but how can you say take minimum wage? Are you kidding me? I don't even like taking $12 hr and frankly thats not enough. I'm not a College grad, but I'm working on it. How on earth would someone raise a family on that, pay for healthcare (some specialists are $400 a visit and on top of that you have horrendous prices on subscriptions, have more than one person in the family with any medical bills and you wouldn't even be able to pay any of them), ever take a vacation, ever have a life, help pay for the kids college tuition, possibly help with your parents health issues or living expenses once they get too old, have a car payment or fix a car, have savings or investments for security and retirement (because who is going to take care of all these people when they retire?)

And yes everybody does have the right to have a good life. "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness," Declaration of Independence. I don't think very many people are happy who make minimum wage.
Why do you think everybody comes to America? Its to have a good life. Unless I was completely desperate would I take that low paying of a job, those should be for part-time help or highschoolers.

I grew up middle to high middle income and I'm staying here and if I can make more I will. Isn't that the whole thing to do better than your parents? Why on earth would someone want to be poor and to wish that on someone is terrible.

People need to be paid real wages.

Oh I forgot to add, the more I make the more I spend. The less I make the tighter the ole purse strings get and I'm good at that. America needs people to spend money to succeed and to get it out of this mess and the way to do that is to pay people enough so they can cover lifes expenses and have some left over to buy stuff and keep our economy going. You can't do that on minimum wage or anything close to it.

[NWPAguy]

Make sure that you are reading and interpreting all of my posts correctly.

I haven't read this whole post (I don't have the time right now), but how can you say take minimum wage? Are you kidding me?

Did I sound like I was kidding?! I am not telling anyone to take a minimum wage job. I'm telling everyone else to shut their yaps and stop complaining if another person wants to take a minimum wage job. If I want to take a job paying $5.85/hour (oh wait, that's $6.55/hour here in liberal high-tax Pennsylvania), I should be free to make that decision. I would decide NOT to take that low salary, but I should be free to make that decision for myself! I'm a professional musician and I was recently offered a spot as a DJ on the local radio station, for minimum wage. I told the station that they'd have to raise their offer tremendously in order to get me on the air. They didn't, and I never broadcasted for them. This was my decision to make... not some politician's decision. If I wanted to work for two dollars an hour, I should be allowed to. Are we in a free country or aren't we?

I don't even like taking $12 hr and frankly thats not enough.

I agree with you. I don't think it's enough for me either. However, some people do. $12/hour, assuming 40 hours/week and 50 weeks of work per year, equates to $24,000/year. That's $2,000 per month. If you already own your house, you can live on that. If you have a family, it'd be really hard... unless you recall that our socialist government immediately throws money at any such people. Bear in mind, I don't feel that people who CANNOT work should be denied welfare. My grandmother worked her butt off in sweatshops and the like, for decades, raising 7 children almost entirely by herself after her husband died. In her later years, she became physically incapable of working, and went on food stamps. I can see that. However, I don't like how the government throws all kinds of money at, for example, women who bear children out of wedlock. I just got done reading an article which revealed that a study had been conducted, concluding that divorce and out-of-wedlock births cost America $112 billion per year. I believe in pre-marital abstinence, but if others don't and they choose to play around, they should be held entirely responsible for the consequences of their actions. At any rate, I agree that $12/hour is not enough. Therefore, anyone who has no choice but to take $12/hour should live within his/her means. Two people working full time at $12/hour make $4,000 per month and that is fine for anyone who isn't shouldering a huge debt load.

I'm not a College grad, but I'm working on it. How on earth would someone raise a family on that,

Maybe they'd have to skimp. Americans have become so spoiled... and we've forgotten how to skimp when necessary. My parents had to skimp all the time, and my brother and I were never any worse off because of it. My mom's family was dirt-poor, and although that's never pleasant, they all agree that the need to rely on each other brought them closer together as a family.

pay for healthcare (some specialists are $400 a visit and on top of that you have horrendous prices on subscriptions, have more than one person in the family with any medical bills and you wouldn't even be able to pay any of them)

There are free medical clinics, first of all. Also, I guess this assumes that you don't have health insurance. One of the reasons why health care is so expensive is because of malpractice insurance, tort lawsuits, and lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies. You see it all the time... "If you took [drug name], you might be entitled to a settlement"... well, settle the drug companies out of business and then nobody gets the medicine they need. If you aren't prepared to deal with the risk factors of taking a medicine, don't take the medicine!! If it's too new, and not yet time-proven, don't take the medicine!! And if you do, later to find out that there had been some esoteric side effect that nobody knew about, understand that it was your choice to take the medicine!! When I was in college, Olestra was promoted as a low-fat alternative to oil. I ate quite a few bags of chips made with Olestra. It was later deemed to be unhealthy and carry some serious side effects. Did I sue? No!! It was my choice to eat Olestra! Plus, to the best of my knowledge, I never experienced the side effects. This is why health care is so expensive.

Besides, there's a thing called the Hippocratic Oath. This means that doctors swear that they will care for whomever needs care, regardless of their ability to pay. Hospitals that are certified for emergency services are legally bound to render those services to anyone in need, regardless of their ability to pay. On top of that, most of the time, if someone needs expensive medical care that they cannot afford, the state will pick up the bill. Believe it or not, there's more socialism in the medical system of America than most people understand.

Health insurers are driving up the costs as well, since they will only pay what they determine is a "fair and reasonable" cost for the services. So, doctors raise their prices just to jack up the average for the fair and reasonable cost. One doctor I once dealt with explained this to me. He quoted me one price for a visit, assuming initially that I was insured. When I told him I'd be paying cash, he lowered his price by over 25% and explained that had I been insured, he'd only have gotten back what I wound up paying him in cash anyway... for this reason.

ever take a vacation,

A vacation is a luxury, not a necessity. I love vacations, but one can live without them.

ever have a life,

Define "have a life". Does this mean "go out to eat", "go to the movies", and other leisure activities of the like? Again, this is luxury stuff. We are not entitled to these luxuries, any more than we are entitled to a Cadillac and the cheap gas to run it.

help pay for the kids college tuition,

There's a thing called financial aid. If the parents cannot pay the tuition due to low income, there are so many need-based scholarships out there that practically anyone with good grades could get a free ride to college if their parents cannot pay for college. And if that fails, there are student loans... which really suck when you're a young newly married college graduate couple like my wife and I... but they are there.

possibly help with your parents health issues or living expenses once they get too old,

Medicare and Medicaid take care of that stuff, financially speaking. If it's a matter of not having time to care for your parents, put them in a nursing home. I know nobody really wants to do that, but what's the alternative? Some nursing homes are really good... I know this, because I play at nursing homes about 4 times per week. Those people have it MADE. As far as living expenses go, let your parents move in with you. You CAN do that. People used to do it all the time.

have a car payment or fix a car,

Then don't have a car payment!! I've owned 11 different cars in my lifetime and not one of them ever had a car payment. They were all CHEAP cars, with only three costing more than $1,000... but if you look for a good deal and you know enough about cars, you can get a good cheap old car. I bought a 1985 Chrysler New Yorker for $1,000 in 2005... it had only 43,000 miles... I drove it for 31,000 miles with no major trouble whatsoever (it had two minor routine maintenance issues, but what car doesn't?)... then turned around and sold it for $850. That's a good deal. But no, most people don't think about that. They just want a nice flashy newer car... which is more expensive to fix, anyway. So buy an old car, learn how to fix it, or hook up with a backyard mechanic who can. Old cars are surprisingly cheap to repair, and their gas mileage is comparable to cars of today.

have savings or investments for security and retirement (because who is going to take care of all these people when they retire?)

Our socialist government! Good grief, what do you think Social Security is? There's also Medicare and Medicaid, as I mentioned before.

And yes everybody does have the right to have a good life. "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness," Declaration of Independence.

What's your definition of a good life? Amish people are generally very happy with their lives... heaven knows, they CHOOSE their lifestyle (and are given the chance as teenagers to leave the Amish community and live "in the world")... and they hardly have any modern conveniences!

I don't think very many people are happy who make minimum wage.

Again, that depends. Not many Americans are happy with that salary. However, as I said before, if you take an average resident of sub-Saharan Africa and bring him to America, and give him a minimum wage job and an average one-bedroom apartment, he'll think he's died and gone to heaven! When you live in a shack made of mud, without so much as a toilet or running water, and you make one or two dollars per day, going into a situation where you have indoor plumbing and electricity, and climate control, where you're making $44 per day, is an exponential improvement!

Why do you think everybody comes to America? Its to have a good life.

I agree, and I wouldn't be here if it weren't for immigrants. Three of my four grandparents were immigrants. However, back then, it was understood that the responsibility for achieving the American dream rested entirely upon you. You sink or swim when you come to America. These days, people can immigrate to America and quickly go on the dole. Sure, THEY consider that a good life, but what does it bring YOU? Just a bunch of leeches who are living off of YOUR money and bringing you nothing but crime, decay and divisiveness in return.

Unless I was completely desperate would I take that low paying of a job, those should be for part-time help or highschoolers.

Again, I agree. Sometimes people get desperate. The truth is, the salary you accept is what you are worth. By agreeing to accept a certain amount of money in return for a certain amount of work, you are telling the person paying you that you are not worth more. If you were, you wouldn't accept less. This is a bitter pill for most people to swallow... and I have to deal with it in my own life... but in the end it becomes a question of... what's your price? How little do I have to pay you to get you to work for me? That's no different from Americans who shop for the lowest price on the same item. They'll buy from the store which offers that item for the lowest possible price. It's the American way, across the boards.

I grew up middle to high middle income and I'm staying here and if I can make more I will.

God bless you. That's how all Americans should operate.

Isn't that the whole thing to do better than your parents?

That depends upon who your parents are. I don't know if Bill Gates has kids, but that'd definitely be a hard act for his kids to beat. :-)

Why on earth would someone want to be poor and to wish that on someone is terrible.

Nobody WANTS to be poor. The only difference is that decent Americans know that it should be their responsibility, and not anyone else's, to ensure that they get into a situation where they don't have to be poor. Lots of Americans get into the victim mentality and start leeching, either because they know they can or because they choose to play the blame game with everyone else except themselves. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"... notice how it is the PURSUIT of happiness, not the ENTITLEMENT of happiness. There's too much of an entitlement mentality in this country.

People need to be paid real wages.

Then they should accept nothing less. When they accept less, the employer has no incentive whatsoever to pay them more.

Oh I forgot to add, the more I make the more I spend.

The same is generally true for everyone, but it's all about where the money comes from. Some employer has to spend more on you (leaving less available to spend on his business or whatever) in order for you to have a higher salary.

The less I make the tighter the ole purse strings get and I'm good at that.

As are most people. Nobody likes being that way. My wife and I have very little discretionary income right now and we don't like having to be tightwads... but that's the way it has to be until we improve our situation, which we're working on right now.

America needs people to spend money to succeed and to get it out of this mess and the way to do that is to pay people enough so they can cover lifes expenses and have some left over to buy stuff and keep our economy going. You can't do that on minimum wage or anything close to it.

Not quite. America needs people to spend money WISELY, and buy AMERICAN GOODS, in order to get America out of this mess. America used to be entirely self-sufficient. Just one generation ago, it was practically the biggest joke ever when something was NOT made in the United States. Japanese imports used to be viewed as crap to the extreme, as were Chinese imports. Then, Americans started experimenting with this cheap garbage... the purchase of which helped drive American companies out of business unless they started making things overseas. Americans chose to buy cheap stuff instead of quality stuff. Why do you suppose that everyone goes around saying "they just don't make 'em like they used to"? My parents have a 100-year-old Victrola record player which works almost like it was brand new. Do you think that your new CD player will even still be working in 20 years? People still drive, and love, Volkswagen Beetles even though the last new "old Beetle" seen at dealerships in this country was sold when Jimmy Carter was president. Do you think that, 30 years from now, people will still be driving today's bargain-basement car, the Hyundai Accent? I think that the Accent came out in 1995 and I swear, I see more old VW Beetles on the road than 90's-era Accents! They just don't make 'em like they used to! We buy all of this ridiculous crap, made in China or Indonesia or Mexico or whatever, and then we wonder why American factories are shutting down and moving to these other countries! We wonder why there is such a trade deficit! Come on, America... we can be great again, but we do not have a divine mandate which says we will always be great! Greatness must be achieved, and maintained. We achieved it... but we failed to maintain it.