how diverse is oregon? (Portland: condos, neighborhood, college)

[Krystle]

Originally Posted by illinoisboy

What do you guys consider "diverse"?

Does Salem qualify as being diverse because it has a Hispanic population, or not? Because I know that Oregon is mostly white.

I would consider Portland diverse because it has a large amount of backgrounds, other than Hispanic. (since they are seen everywhere nowadays)

Just wondering...

I wouldn't consider Salem diverse because there's no intermingling whatsoever between Hispanics and white people. I hold this in contrast to New Mexico, where the two main groups were Hispanic and white, but there was a LOT of interaction between the two (no sharp divide). Many Hispanics knew how to speak some English, many whites knew how to speak some Spanish. I don't see that here.

Also, Hispanics aren't the only ethnic minority in Salem. There seem to be a significant number of Asian people here (Vietnamese, Lao, Thai, other Pacific Islanders). And I've seen many Russian woman wearing these long, pretty dresses that I'm assuming is their traditional attire.

If you want to enjoy the diversity of Salem, it won't be presented to you on a silver platter. You have to step across boundaries and reach out to people--visit a Mexican restaurant and speak a little Spanish; go to a Vietnamese restaurant and ask how you can make pho; ask one of the Russian women which part of Russia they are from; etc.

[portlandshaws]

Thank you, Seattlitefrom NC! Your post hit it on the head. I would be curious to know if Leisesturm is caucasian....I had no idea how racist/ignorant Portland could be until I was involved in a mixed-race relationship and witnessed it first-hand.

[Silverfall]

Originally Posted by portlandshaws

Thank you, Seattlitefrom NC! Your post hit it on the head. I would be curious to know if Leisesturm is caucasian....I had no idea how racist/ignorant Portland could be until I was involved in a mixed-race relationship and witnessed it first-hand.

I'm just curious what you experienced.

[Leisesturm]

Leisesturm is not caucasian. My opinions and my strong advocacy of Oregon in general and Portland in particular are not in anyway meant to ridicule anyone elses choice. Of course the world won't end if Portlandshaws leaves Portland with her family but it doesn't mean I feel any less strongly about how I see things and since the question was open for discussion...

I don't believe NYC has a well defined neighborhood or city where African Americans like those that Seattlitefrom NC describes are in a majority. Quite the opposite, those areas of Brooklyn and Manhattan, Queens and the Bronx where African Americans are the majority population are decidedly second rate if not outright 'bad' so I come by my opinions honestly. I do know better, though, when I lived in Michigan I had the example of "Southfield" which is an all black suburb of Detroit dominated by high achieving black people. Ironically, I never saw it in person, I lived in an all white suburb of Detroit called Royal Oak. My girlfriend (white) would never have stood still for being a token white girl in an all black town. The perception was that the black women would all give her a hard time for 'poaching'. There is some truth to that.

In Great Britain, in cities like Wembley, Birmingham and Manchester people of African descent are not distinguishable from people of caucasian descent by the way they speak, dress or conduct themselves. Neighborhoods are truly intergrated and a given block is likely to have families of any and all ethnic groups living side by side. Here when an African American or Hispanic family move onto what was previously an all white block there will be tension. Heaven forbid it gets to be any more than the one, there will soon be 'for sale' signs going up and the flight will begin.

With children we get to start with a clean slate. My ex from Birmingham (black) grew up without identifiable racial characteristics and is quite well spoken and is a Database Administrator. Naturally when she arrived in New York she wound up in Brooklyn. Her son, born here fell into the natural segregation that permeates American life and is now a high school dropout, very well versed in ghetto culture despite the fact that he is not at all ghetto at his core, just a wannabe. No matter, he is pretty much down and out as far as his chances for success like his mothers. I am not a sociologist, I don't know why this happens but I know it happens. Had he been born in Canada or Great Britain it would not have happened.

So, I stand by my observation that there is a racial hierarchy in America and within racial enclaves you haver further stratification by attainment (class) but it would be simply untrue to say that within the African American racial group we have similar distribution of low, middle and high attainment individuals compared to the dominant one. When you have the further complications of a mixed race relationship and mixed race offspring it just seems to me that the West Coast is more accepting overall. Yes, the yahoo's are more vocal but they are really a small minority. On the East Coast everyone is more buttoned up about how they feel in public but give them an anonymous (and unmoderated!) forum to speak their minds and the race hatred pours out and you get to see some really scary points of view. Oregon may not be diverse but to this east coast transplant it has its heart in the right place.

H

[portlandshaws]

Thanks for your thoughts, Leisesturm. I think you're right that in general, Oregonians have their heart in the right place. What my husband has experienced is more ignorance than true racism. For example, one of his employees asked him recently "why do black people clean their cars all the time?". He gets asked ridiculous questions like that all the time...not because the person is mean-spirited, just because they've never really been around blacks. My concern is that my child will grow up in this very narrow-minded town and feel completely out of sorts when we visit my husband's extended family on the east coast.
Let it be known, though, I TRULY don't want to leave my hometown of Portland but it's beginning to look that we're headed down that road. Hopefully someday down the line the mixed race kids will help to wipe out racism all together. Go Barak!!!
As an aside, I find it interesting that you used the term "well spoken" when referring to your ex. That's one of my husband's biggest pet peeves since it's so common for whites to say that about blacks! (especially commentators talking about athletes.)

[portlandshaws]

And Silverfall, to answer your question directly, there are too many instances to count. My husband has been pulled over at gunpoint several times, just trying to drive home from work late at night. Security guards follow him around stores. Old ladies clutch their purses when he passes by on the sidewalk. When we go to the best restaurants in town, people STARE at us, wondering what in the world he's doing there. And more common than not, at those same restaurants, the hostess will address ME when asking how many people in the party. The server will address ME when talking about the menu and address ME when asking about the wine list. I am often asked if I would like to be the one to taste the wine. These are subtle things that I didn't even notice until he pointed them out to me but for many years now I've noticed it time and again. That's what I mean about Portland...the racism is subtle but it does exist. Of course, I would prefer subtle over blatant but ideally we would be treated like any other couple (and for the MOST part we are).

[Silverfall]

Originally Posted by portlandshaws

And Silverfall, to answer your question directly, there are too many instances to count. My husband has been pulled over at gunpoint several times, just trying to drive home from work late at night. Security guards follow him around stores. Old ladies clutch their purses when he passes by on the sidewalk. When we go to the best restaurants in town, people STARE at us, wondering what in the world he's doing there. And more common than not, at those same restaurants, the hostess will address ME when asking how many people in the party. The server will address ME when talking about the menu and address ME when asking about the wine list. I am often asked if I would like to be the one to taste the wine. These are subtle things that I didn't even notice until he pointed them out to me but for many years now I've noticed it time and again. That's what I mean about Portland...the racism is subtle but it does exist. Of course, I would prefer subtle over blatant but ideally we would be treated like any other couple (and for the MOST part we are).

Thanks for sharing. As an agent people ask me all the time about "racial incidents." I don't hear about anything major, but at least I can say there may be these more subtle issues to deal with.

It's no big secret that Oregon has a lot of Caucasians, but when I was in Toronto a couple of years ago, the integration and infusion of different cultures was everywhere I went. I came from the Chicago area which is more diverse, but still not even close to as integrated as Toronto seemed to be.

The sad thing is that situations like these make people feel uncomfortable, obviously, and it makes them want to leave. The problem is that if people don't stick around, we can't get to the point where we have more cultures infused and integrated here. Its a cycle.

[Krystle]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

...it just seems to me that the West Coast is more accepting overall. Yes, the yahoo's are more vocal but they are really a small minority. On the East Coast everyone is more buttoned up about how they feel in public but give them an anonymous (and unmoderated!) forum to speak their minds and the race hatred pours out and you get to see some really scary points of view. Oregon may not be diverse but to this east coast transplant it has its heart in the right place.

That's been my experience as well. I'm mixed and in New York (and every part of the East coast I visited) everyone was polite enough, but I sensed an undercurrent of "this is your group, this is mine" that I don't pick up on in Oregon; and I didn't pick up on it in the Southwest, either.

[Leisesturm]

Actually I have been pulled over far more on the East Coast (NYC) and Midwest (MI) than I ever have been in Oregon (never). In fact one of the key reasons for my leaving NYC was that in a three monts period I was 'detained' no less than four times by law enforcement, three times on bicycle (not for running red lights) and once on the subway, for going from one car to another. Each time before the ticket I was subjected to a frisk search and a lengthy (30min+) search for previous warrants and/or parole violations. In the instance of the subway stop the officers had no computer (plainclothes) and one of them made the trip to the precinct on foot and did the searches on two of us (unrelated stranger stopped somewhere else) while we waited with the other officer in the station. That stop took over an hour and I was livid after that. I have still not paid the fine ($75) and I don't think I ever will. I am sure a white passenger has been stopped at some time by NYPD for violating some code or the other but they wouldn't be subjected to the search or the lengthy background check. That I am certain of. Cops actually wave hello when I see them in Hillsboro but I suspect that is due to the high 'cute' factor of being on a tandem bicycle. But just recently I headed home after dropping my girlfriend (now fiance) at the airport and looking forward to a whole weekend without supervision. I didn't know a little slip of a car like a Chevy Cobalt (rental) had so much giddyup but before I knew it I was doing 80mph. That could have earned me a cavity search if I had been on the Belt Parkway in NYC but the ratio of law enforcement to citizenry is much lower in Oregon and the average person can get away with a little reckless behavior from time to time out here.

I'm sorry but my experience of Portland is completely counter to the experience of Portlandshaw's partner. My partner is white and blonde and I am a very black man and I know people want to stare but they don't. Even when I am out alone I detect no staring and I know what it would feel like because I have lived in Detroit suburbs where people do stare. In Michigan if I went into a music store to get some valve oil for my French Horn I would be asked if I knew that the Asst. Principal Horn in the New York Philharmonic is a black man. Here the same situation will lead to talk about the weather. For very different reasons our treatment in restaurants is different from yours but in the end I just don't think sensitivity over race is worth trying to escape. Persecution over race is another thing entirely.

If it were your partner writing instead of you I would still feel the same way. We had the entire country to consider when deciding to escape NY, some southern cities on the East made the long list. The research triangle in NC and a few cities in VA, even DC were in there. In the end we decided against it. Those cities might have more "diversity" but interracial relationships are still not the norm and there would still be 'staring' but instead of your DH being 'uncomfortable' it would be you and I daresay, public opinion of a white woman who consorts with a black man make for more reaction in the southeast than the same dynamic in the northwest.

I could be wrong but thats my take. I am sorry to see your sweetie miserable but I just don't think it gets better than the northwest for live and let live intolerance AND above par mass transit AND bike/pedestrian sensitivity AND "green" sensibilities... oh dear, I'm ranting again, my bad.

H

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by portlandshaws

...I find it interesting that you used the term "well spoken" when referring to your ex. That's one of my husband's biggest pet peeves since it's so common for whites to say that about blacks! (especially commentators talking about athletes.)

[big sigh] Where to begin. Within the 'black community' we recognize two main groups of inhabitants those who trace their ancestry to Africa by way of slave colonies in the southern U.S. and those who trace it through slave colonies in the Caribbean. More recently there has been direct immigration from the continent of Africa itself. The three groups are not always unified in their opinions of life in America. I and others who have Caribbean ancestry do not bridle at being considered 'well spoken' as a compliment by members of more established American castes. Assimilation culturally and linguistically remains the gold standard for a high percentage and my apologies if I have spoken for any that do not share this opinion. I suspect though, in large part what those sportscasters are trying to convey is their admiration of the 'deportment' of a given individual and speech pattern is often an insight into how an individual interfaces with the world. It shouldn't be taken for granted. I suppose I was commenting on my ex's deportment more than how she actually ennunciates although she like many second and third generation blacks with European or Canadian heritage bemoaned their assimilation when they arrived in America and found a large and visible majority of people of African descent maintaining a seperate culture within the dominant one. When I was born Caribbean immigration to America had just opened up and my parents left me in the care of my grandparents and headed for greater opportunity in New York City. They would up in one of the poorest and roughest black ghettos and I was headed for God knows what except that the Board of Education intervened and I was bussed out of the neighborhood daily to a white school several miles away though to me as a child it seemed like dozens of miles. That is why I can sit here and type at you in a reasonable facsimile of Standard English. That and online spell check. It has not been easy being a black man in so polarized a country but the difficulties have at all times been ameliorated by the fact that I could talk the talk and walk the walk. I am not going to downplay that fact or be ashamed of it for one minute because I have seen what has become of those who held out for their 'identity' and remained suspicious of the motives of those in power. Much more than any of you wanted to know about this one topic. Sorry.

H