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EXPERTS in the field said otherwise. Although I do agree with you about carrying an MLU. But AGAIN, the head of the rescue effort is speaking before the families.
I'd be curious to see what these EXPERTS say off the record, away from the families. A shovel and MLB when climbing just before a winter storm is supposed to arrive is simple common sense, no expertise needed.
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Is not the recommendation to carry either an MLU OR a cell phone? Their cell phone was activated within one half hour of beginning their ascent. These were/are not sloppy, inexperienced week-end climbers. AGAIN, no more so than calling Dale Earnhardt a local track racer. One small mistake is all it takes.
It is a known fact that cell phones do not work at many places on the mountain. An MLB is by far the better choice for emergencies.
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Why the distinction between spring or winter? Do snowstorms not happen during the spring? Remember May, 1986? A sudden snowstorm killed seven people - locators, shovels, snow caves and all.
My distinction was between summer and winter, not spring. I could cut them some slack for foregoing the shovel during summer, as the snowstorms are MUCH less frequent or severe. But not during the middle of December.
A few comments. I have the experience to back up what I'm going to say.
#1: In general, Mt. Hood is not a difficult climb. By no way, shape, or form is it one of the most difficult in the world. Not even close. In fact its quite easy in relation to the rest. It IS however, one of the most climbed mountains in the world due to its accessibility. And this can lead to problems. The most experienced climber of the group has summited 6 times. Most likley the majority were summer climbs when most snow has melted off the glacier and your only real task is route finding through crevasse fields or a few pitches of alpine rock. Climb enough in these conditions and you get bored and want something more. Winter ascents are a different animal. I've done a few on other mountains. I no longer do them. Its not worth the risk.
#2: These climbers are not the best of the best nor are they professional climbers. They are recreational climbers that have a few climbs under their belts. No more, no less. Based on the most experienced climber's resume, I have more experience than he does and I am in no way a great climber. The other two climbers had less experience, which is scary given the risks of a winter ascent. Climbing teams are only as strong as the weakest climber. These are all relatively young kids. I have climbed with young and old. Abilities don't really change with age, but your level of conservativeness and willingness to take risk certainly seems to. When I think back to some stupid things I did when climbing in my 20s I'm amazed I'm around to talk about it. But its what I loved and no one was going to talk me out of it.
#3: Mountain weather is something you cannot truly understand until you experience it. I have spent the night in a tent perched on a ledge with 100+ mph winds flatting a mountaineering tent to my face, breaking every tent pole. Sometimes there is absolutely no way you can do anything but stay where you are just hope it passes. Most often you don't even see it coming. In less than 15 minutes you can go from full sun to hell. Couple this with avalanche risks in Winter and you are asking for trouble.
#4: Within the last decade or two, there seems to be this big push for speed climbing. Climbing light and fast (a la Mark Twight). The less gear you take, the faster you can climb. The faster you can climb, the less time there is for conditions to turn bad. There is some truth here, but some people to go extremes to save weight. I've known people to cut labels off their clothing because it all adds up. Climbers are minimalists to the extreme. Its not pleasant. It isn't you average backpacking trip. I wonder if some of this played in to the team not taking the locator beacon. I know it probably sounds stupid to some, but they weigh a third of a pound. The only other reason someone wouldn't take the beacon is pride.
#5: I am not convinced they did not have a shovel. It would be the most important piece of equipment behind rope, harness, and ice axe for a winter condition climb. That being said, things can very easily "disappear" when climbing. When you are on a 60 degree slope, everything must be anchored. I've lost gloves, helmets, carabiners by thinking they were not going to slide for the few seconds I set them down. You spend the next minute watching it slowly slide away. You try to reach for it while saying "oh s#!t". Most climbers have probably experienced this. Given the size and shape of a climbing shovel, I can easily see this meeting that fate.
#6: Good climbers know the risks they are taking. They are not blind to the fact that they can die. Ones that think they are immune are dangerous. The thrill and sense of personal accomplishment is a greater drive than the risk that would otherwise keep them at sea level. That leads me to the discussion on putting the lives of the rescue teams at risk when you do get in to trouble. The overwhelming majority of mountain rescue climbers do it because it affords them the opportunity to do something they love while performing a vital need. In general, mountain rescue is volunteer based. Please read the section titled "Summary - Why We Exist:" on the linked Portland Mountain Rescue site: Portland Mountain Rescue | About PMR | What Is PMR? Most of them do it because they love climbing. I truly admire these guys.
My thoughts are with the climbers yet to be found.
A shovel and MLB when climbing just before a winter storm is supposed to arrive is simple common sense, no expertise needed.
It is a known fact that cell phones do not work at many places on the mountain. An MLB is by far the better choice for emergencies.
My distinction was between summer and winter, not spring. I could cut them some slack for foregoing the shovel during summer, as the snowstorms are MUCH less frequent or severe. But not during the middle of December.
Just before a winter storm? No storm was predicted before their climb. Climbing in the Cascades in the winter time is far different with our maritime weather patterns than climbing in the Rockies. It's a much different set of circumstances.
The climbers had a clear, calm day in which to make their ascent and descent. And plenty of time, over 12 hours I believe, in which to do it.
"Something" happened which I doubt occurred because of the possible lack of a shovel. They had several hours to make their descent in good weather. What exactly happened, we do not know.
You are misinformed about MLUs. MLU technology is over 30+ years old. They are hardly a far better choice than a cell phone with rapidly emergent advanced GPS technology (which several companies including Google are currently working on; it is anticipated that within 5 years they will be mandatory on a climb).
It is a known fact that MLUs do not work on many places on Mt. Hood.
You are also wrong about the effectiveness of MLUs on Mt. Hood. They work only in line-of-sight. If a climber were on the wrong side of the mountain to reach a locator, no MLU on earth would work. No standard cell phone would work either.
MLUs have to be turned on; if a climber fell into a crevasse, lost consciousness, etc., what good would the MLU do if the climber weren't physically able to activate it? Or if they were out of line-of-sight?
A lot of people seem to believe that technology, even 30 year old technology, will always save the day.
MLB...are you referring to an avalanche beacon? Quite a bit different than an MLU.
In fact, no one knows what happened to these people, or why they couldn't make it down the mountain. Clearly something went horribly awry long before the storm came in. So, try to be a bit kind, and cut them some slack. Especially since you nor even the rescuers know exactly what happened.
I understand that these families are very Christian people. Even though my religion may not be their's, I believe we pray to the same Power and the same God.
I offer my continued prayers and condolences to the families.
#5: I am not convinced they did not have a shovel. It would be the most important piece of equipment behind rope, harness, and ice axe for a winter condition climb. That being said, things can very easily "disappear" when climbing. When you are on a 60 degree slope, everything must be anchored. I've lost gloves, helmets, carabiners by thinking they were not going to slide for the few seconds I set them down. You spend the next minute watching it slowly slide away. You try to reach for it while saying "oh s#!t". Most climbers have probably experienced this. Given the size and shape of a climbing shovel, I can easily see this meeting that fate.
In general, mountain rescue is volunteer based. Please read the section titled "Summary - Why We Exist:" on the linked Portland Mountain Rescue site: Portland Mountain Rescue | About PMR | What Is PMR? Most of them do it because they love climbing. I truly admire these guys.
My thoughts are with the climbers yet to be found.
I posted before I read this. Thank you for the very calm and valuable information. Incidentally, on your #5 , that is exactly what I was told when researching this.
Thank you for a well-thought out post. It is mostly the lack of kindness in some posts which bothers me, even if that unkindness is based on ignorance. It is not difficult to research this information, especially as I've found, when professional climbers themselves are so willing to share their love of climbing and information.
I do feel very sorry for the families, but I feel frustrated in that I hear about a story like this every year. I think everyone has the right to do whatever they want, without being judged by anyone else,...unless...it impacts others without choice. My tax dollars do go into these rescues and each rescue effort is very expensive. If a person wants to participate in a dangerous hobby, so be it, but let it be entirely at their expense.
I do feel very sorry for the families, but I feel frustrated in that I hear about a story like this every year. I think everyone has the right to do whatever they want, without being judged by anyone else,...unless...it impacts others without choice. My tax dollars do go into these rescues and each rescue effort is very expensive. If a person wants to participate in a dangerous hobby, so be it, but let it be entirely at their expense.
As stated, many of the rescue workers are volunteer climbers who want to be there. Please read the link from Portland Mountain Rescue that I posted earlier.
Whats the real difference between these rescue workers and firefighters that have to go in to danger to put out a fire at someone's house because the owners were negligent? What about rescue workers that have to pull someone out of a wrecked car because they were driving drunk or too fast?
If you are going to argue against rescue workers saving climbers other than at the climber's expense, you have to be fair across the board.
If you want to say that a stupid act should result in personal financial liability thats fine, but its not limited to climbing or hobbies.
As stated, many of the rescue workers are volunteer climbers who want to be there. Please read the link from Portland Mountain Rescue that I posted earlier.
Whats the real difference between these rescue workers and firefighters that have to go in to danger to put out a fire at someone's house because the owners were negligent? What about rescue workers that have to pull someone out of a wrecked car because they were driving drunk or too fast?
If you are going to argue against rescue workers saving climbers other than at the climber's expense, you have to be fair across the board.
If you want to say that a stupid act should result in personal financial liability thats fine, but its not limited to climbing or hobbies.
You are comparing the rescue involved in a house fire or drunk driving to the rescue of a person whose hobby it is to purposefully climb treacherous mountains? Yes, then, if we knew that a person would be setting their house on fire or going out to drive drunk (which is an illegal act, so has its own repercussions), then I would also want them to sign a waiver saying that they would have to pay for their own rescue. There is a difference between negligence or flat out stupidity to a "chosen" hobby. Dangerous mountain climbing is a chosen hobby, so if a person plans to climb a mountain and not use a locator device then they should have to take full responsibility for what might occur, not the tax payers (many of the rescue personnel are paid by taxpayer money and the helicopter and equipment costs are astronomical).
You are comparing the rescue involved in a house fire or drunk driving to the rescue of a person whose hobby it is to purposefully climb treacherous mountains? Yes, then, if we knew that a person would be setting their house on fire or going out to drive drunk (which is an illegal act, so has its own repercussions), then I would also want them to sign a waiver saying that they would have to pay for their own rescue. There is a difference between negligence or flat out stupidity to a "chosen" hobby. Dangerous mountain climbing is a chosen hobby, so if a person plans to climb a mountain and not use a locator device then they should have to take full responsibility for what might occur, not the tax payers (many of the rescue personnel are paid by taxpayer money and the helicopter and equipment costs are astronomical).
Yes I am making that comparison. They can all be reckless acts caused by negligence, stupidity, and ignorance. You are trying to make some kind of false distinction between them. Neither the climbers that get stranded or the homeowner that chooses to overload a circuit is intending to get in to trouble. How many homeowner hobbies cause house fires?
Why do I have to pay school taxes when I don't have any kids? The answer is because its for the greater good. The same reason you, via taxes, pay for fire departments and police even if you don't use them personally.
Dangerous mountain climbing is a chosen hobby, so if a person plans to climb a mountain and not use a locator device then they should have to take full responsibility for what might occur, not the tax payers (many of the rescue personnel are paid by taxpayer money and the helicopter and equipment costs are astronomical).
Please read the previous posts explaining this. Please read the links which were provided so that you have a better understanding of this issue. You clearly have no idea what goes into such a rescue. Please educate yourself.
Do you even know what a "locator device is" much less how it functions?
Few of the rescue personnel are paid. They are volunteers, other than law enforcement and ambulance. The helios are national guard...they are used for training. Explain what you mean by "many of the rescue personnel are paid"? Tell me who those people are?
You are not out a red cent which is your primary concern. What comes out of your pocket in the most important point you make.
If you or your husband get drunk and slams into someone...or kills you or someone else...too bad, drinking is a dangerous hobby for some drunks - your risk. Pay for your own Lifeflight, med bills and rehab. Don't have the cash for Lifeflight? Too bad. Just so long as I'm not charged a cent because of your stupidity.
It works both way. I bet you'd have a lot of compassion if your underage child lost control and crashed into a tree and needed years of rehab. you knew she didn't have a license and you let her drive. Too bad. I ain't paying to keep your girl alive because you were a bad, inattentive parent..that's just flat out stupidity.
Please explain to me where you draw the line? Is it only at your own pockebook?
Pray that it's never you or your child or your loved ones who makea an all too common human error. And you'd also better pray there are all those volunteers there to help you out...as long as it doesn't cost me a cent, I'm all for them rescuing you. Good luck with that.
I don't know how workable it would be in Oregon, but when people come to climb Denali or Mt. Foraker (which is actually the tougher climb of the two in Alaska), they have to pre register with the Parks Service and pay a fee, and there are mandatory requirements involved.
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