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Old 03-20-2011, 09:23 PM
 
4,155 posts, read 7,643,788 times
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Lymmo bus service may start charging passengers | Orlando Business Journal

If they completed this expansion as planned I would pay to ride it daily. For a person living or working downtown, this would get you within walking distance of anywhere you needed to go. It would be a great compliment to Sunrail as well. You could take Sunrail into any of the DT and use the Lymmo to get anywhere else DT. I paid $40/month for my subway pass in Boston and would gladly pay that to ride the proposed Lymmo route, especially with the rising gas prices.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:20 PM
 
114 posts, read 257,860 times
Reputation: 62
Crane,

You like the expansion or the fare?

I like the expansion.

But I hope the fare is relatively cheap; like anything under $0.50.

I don't see how they can justify the fare being $1.00.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:37 PM
 
57 posts, read 141,516 times
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Just scanned the article....like the price for the ride, but they don't go far enough for me! Ha!
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:45 PM
 
114 posts, read 257,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMC Musicman View Post
Just scanned the article....like the price for the ride, but they don't go far enough for me! Ha!
But that is exactly my point.

You can't charge $1.50 and they are only going as far as they stated in the article.

They should honestly just keep the service free.

I've actually used the Lymmo once.
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:32 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 53,118,653 times
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So who ends up paying for that service? The taxpayers--and not just those of Orange County.

80% of public transit funding comes from Federal funds, 10-20% is state, the rest is local. That means that the majority of it is subsidized by people who don't use it--many in suburban areas that are totally underserved by mass transit.

I guarantee that it costs more the $.50 a ride in operating costs. Transit buses average five miles a gallon. That's before maintenance, insurance, drivers salaries, and even the cost of acquiring that bus--which for a typical Lynx bus made by Gillig is $350K.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Orange County, Florida
385 posts, read 1,239,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
So who ends up paying for that service? The taxpayers--and not just those of Orange County.

80% of public transit funding comes from Federal funds, 10-20% is state, the rest is local. That means that the majority of it is subsidized by people who don't use it--many in suburban areas that are totally underserved by mass transit.

I guarantee that it costs more the $.50 a ride in operating costs. Transit buses average five miles a gallon. That's before maintenance, insurance, drivers salaries, and even the cost of acquiring that bus--which for a typical Lynx bus made by Gillig is $350K.
Lynx gets 13% of it's revenue from federal funding, plus 20% from grants some of which are also federal, but which also come from state, local and private sources. Even if all of the grants were federal it would only come up to 33%, which is lower than the national average federal funding (44%, not 80%). For Lynx revenue as of 2011 break down to:

19% Fares
13% Federal
9% State
39% Local/private
20% Grants (a combination of all of the above).

Since Lynx is getting 19% of it's revenue from fares and is charging $2 for a ticket, it follows that the actual average cost of a single ride is approximately $10. However, this is a variable amount since operating expenses do not scale linearly with ridership. A couple years ago when gas spiked the farebox recovery ratio was quite a bit higher. It is something of a chicken and egg problem, since people don't ride the bus because the service level is low, and they can't fund a higher service level because they don't have enough riders. Lynx is on the lower end of the average for U.S. public transport systems, and it is not a coincidence that the denser and larger a city is the better it's farebox recovery. Orange County being spread out it is hard to get the feedback loop going since so many buses spend a lot of time in areas with low ridership per mile.

As for the Lymmo, it is funded by the City of Orlando.

-Harry

Last edited by hgebel; 03-22-2011 at 08:55 AM..
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Old 03-26-2011, 04:02 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 53,118,653 times
Reputation: 12971
Quote:
Originally Posted by hgebel View Post
Lynx gets 13% of it's revenue from federal funding, plus 20% from grants some of which are also federal, but which also come from state, local and private sources. Even if all of the grants were federal it would only come up to 33%, which is lower than the national average federal funding (44%, not 80%). For Lynx revenue as of 2011 break down to:

19% Fares
13% Federal
9% State
39% Local/private
20% Grants (a combination of all of the above).

Since Lynx is getting 19% of it's revenue from fares and is charging $2 for a ticket, it follows that the actual average cost of a single ride is approximately $10. However, this is a variable amount since operating expenses do not scale linearly with ridership. A couple years ago when gas spiked the farebox recovery ratio was quite a bit higher. It is something of a chicken and egg problem, since people don't ride the bus because the service level is low, and they can't fund a higher service level because they don't have enough riders. Lynx is on the lower end of the average for U.S. public transport systems, and it is not a coincidence that the denser and larger a city is the better it's farebox recovery. Orange County being spread out it is hard to get the feedback loop going since so many buses spend a lot of time in areas with low ridership per mile.

As for the Lymmo, it is funded by the City of Orlando.

-Harry
You are only looking at operating costs. Federal mass transit funding falls into two buckets. Capital Expense and Operating Expense. The numbers you are looking at only reflect operating expense. Capital expense is an entirely different bucket of funding, and is indeed 80%. Like I said, a new Gillig hybrid bus costs upwards of $600K, a new Gillig diesel is over $350K.

Other items which fall under capital funding are buildings and bus stops, fixed asset equipment, mid-life overhauls and repowers, and certain clean air initiatives. Lynx received over $31.5 million in Federal ARRA funding alone in 2010, all of which went into capital expenses. (ARRA funds could not be used for operating expenses.) That doesn't include their TIGR funds and any EPA funding they might have received.

The city of Orlando only funds the operating costs of LYMMO, not the capital costs.
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Old 03-26-2011, 05:20 PM
 
20,263 posts, read 28,444,482 times
Reputation: 18151
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
80% of public transit funding comes from Federal funds, 10-20% is state, the rest is local. That means that the majority of it is subsidized by people who don't use it--many in suburban areas that are totally underserved by mass transit.
In a nutshell you explained why public transit is and always will be a disaster in Florida. It's all about Me Me Me and the vocal anti-tax residents who want it all for free...Did it ever occur to you and others that removing as many cars from the road as possible is the goal and if people such as yourself are too good to use it, at least you're less likely to be sitting on I-4 staring at brake lights. Furthermore transit has never been seen as a revenue source so any talk of return on investment is completely ridiculous.
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Old 03-26-2011, 05:37 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 53,118,653 times
Reputation: 12971
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle19125 View Post
In a nutshell you explained why public transit is and always will be a disaster in Florida. It's all about Me Me Me and the vocal anti-tax residents who want it all for free...Did it ever occur to you and others that removing as many cars from the road as possible is the goal and if people such as yourself are too good to use it, at least you're less likely to be sitting on I-4 staring at brake lights. Furthermore transit has never been seen as a revenue source so any talk of return on investment is completely ridiculous.
I'd use public transit if it were available to me--it's not. It has nothing to do with being "too good" to use it, it's a matter of it not servicing the area I live in or work in. If mass transit was available to me, I'd use it and would be willing to pay "full price" for it, as long as everyone else was as well.

And I very seldom use I-4, so what's your point?
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Old 03-26-2011, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Orange County, Florida
385 posts, read 1,239,593 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
You are only looking at operating costs. Federal mass transit funding falls into two buckets. Capital Expense and Operating Expense. The numbers you are looking at only reflect operating expense. Capital expense is an entirely different bucket of funding, and is indeed 80%. Like I said, a new Gillig hybrid bus costs upwards of $600K, a new Gillig diesel is over $350K.

Other items which fall under capital funding are buildings and bus stops, fixed asset equipment, mid-life overhauls and repowers, and certain clean air initiatives. Lynx received over $31.5 million in Federal ARRA funding alone in 2010, all of which went into capital expenses. (ARRA funds could not be used for operating expenses.) That doesn't include their TIGR funds and any EPA funding they might have received.

The city of Orlando only funds the operating costs of LYMMO, not the capital costs.
I am well aware of the difference between capital and operating expenses, and I added both together before do my percentage calculations for Lynx. Lynx does not get anywhere near 80% federal funding for either capital or operating expenses.

-Harry
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