Sunrail ridership Up, Looks like an Epic Success!! (Orlando, Winter Park: home, unemployed)

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

So, roughly how much does ridership have to increase for it to break even without subsidy?

I think someone said it's at 8k a day now? Does it need 20k? 10k? What?

8K a day now? In their dreams unfortunately as it's averaging less than 4K a day right now. TriRail in South Florida is averaging 14K a day, so I would think getting to half of that would be a good goal.

[WithDisp]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

So, roughly how much does ridership have to increase for it to break even without subsidy?

I think someone said it's at 8k a day now? Does it need 20k? 10k? What?

To exist without a subsidy is not much a reality and isn't for nearly all public transit systems in the world.
Slightly over 20K daily would cover day to day operations, double that for necessary bond repayments/etc.

The LIRR in New York does over 10x that, and still bleeds money (albeit with a better fare return than SunRail does) however that is largely a result of retirement pensions and health care costs, something an immature system like SunRail currently has little obligations towards.

To many, the question is how low a ridership is enough to not justify federal or state funding.
To others, the question may be, how could another program transport more people for the same amount of expenditure.
For some on here, it's blindly how much value -may- this have in the future someday, and how can they increase days of operations and hours regardless of cost.

Another interesting parallel I can draw to New York's MTA is that many see it as a public jobs program. They employ more than their fare share of workers who receive middle class wages and benefits without any formal education or useful job skill. So public transit does offer something back for the money put into it aside from simply transit. I don't see Florida employing nearly as many people to do menial tasks that have been outdated by computers, and I suppose bravo to them for that.


My take at this point is that SunRail has a small base of users. The agency should speak to them and find out what makes SunRail appealing to them. I'd wager that they live near a station and work near a station, or are for some reason environmentally minded. I have my doubts that many SunRail users don't drive or have a car. I would wager some don't care to do so.

Given the above facts are true. SunRail merely needs to raise fares $1. For those few riders SunRail offers either a cost savings or convenience or a peace of mind that is worth $2 a day. So long as 2000 riders aren't priced out, it's a win for the rail.

[Mathguy]

Originally Posted by WithDisp

To exist without a subsidy is not much a reality and isn't for nearly all public transit systems in the world.
Slightly over 20K daily would cover day to day operations, double that for necessary bond repayments/etc.

The LIRR in New York does over 10x that, and still bleeds money (albeit with a better fare return than SunRail does) however that is largely a result of retirement pensions and health care costs, something an immature system like SunRail currently has little obligations towards.

To many, the question is how low a ridership is enough to not justify federal or state funding.
To others, the question may be, how could another program transport more people for the same amount of expenditure.
For some on here, it's blindly how much value -may- this have in the future someday, and how can they increase days of operations and hours regardless of cost.

Another interesting parallel I can draw to New York's MTA is that many see it as a public jobs program. They employ more than their fare share of workers who receive middle class wages and benefits without any formal education or useful job skill. So public transit does offer something back for the money put into it aside from simply transit. I don't see Florida employing nearly as many people to do menial tasks that have been outdated by computers, and I suppose bravo to them for that.


My take at this point is that SunRail has a small base of users. The agency should speak to them and find out what makes SunRail appealing to them. I'd wager that they live near a station and work near a station, or are for some reason environmentally minded. I have my doubts that many SunRail users don't drive or have a car. I would wager some don't care to do so.

Given the above facts are true. SunRail merely needs to raise fares $1. For those few riders SunRail offers either a cost savings or convenience or a peace of mind that is worth $2 a day. So long as 2000 riders aren't priced out, it's a win for the rail.

Wow. 4k? They need 20k to just kinda break-even on basic operations?

And that isn't factoring in future retirement obligations?

Wow...... I think this was a pre-mature launch for this initiative.

[0nyxStation]

Originally Posted by jambo101

Amazing For that kind of money you could probably shuttle every one of those riders from their homes to their work every day. Seems to me that kind of money could be better spent on upgrading the areas public transit infrastructure that would ultimately make this type of commuter rail system a viable and integral part of the Orlando transit system , just putting a commuter rail system with no supporting transit infrastructure in place makes no sense to me.

Jambo, i dont live in Orlando so pardon my ignorance. The Lynx busline, does it not feed into many of the major stations? What is the relationship between Lynx and Sunrail? How are they helping or hurting each other?

[WithDisp]

Originally Posted by BlackPeach2

Jambo, i dont live in Orlando so pardon my ignorance. The Lynx busline, does it not feed into many of the major stations? What is the relationship between Lynx and Sunrail? How are they helping or hurting each other?

Almost all Lynx go to Lynx Central Station which is also a SunRail stop.
There would be little incentive to transfer if your aim was to go Downtown.

If you are trying to go from East or West and then up to Altamonte or something you would use Lynx then Sunrail, but you're talking about roughly 90 minutes to go 10-15 miles or so. There are FEW who are fiscally dependent on public transportation who work in Downtown or the northern suburbs.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by BlackPeach2

Jambo, i dont live in Orlando so pardon my ignorance. The Lynx busline, does it not feed into many of the major stations? What is the relationship between Lynx and Sunrail? How are they helping or hurting each other?

I dont live in Orlando either but i'm familiar enough with Floridas suburban layout to know your house maybe a mile/s or more from any public transit bus stop that will take you to a station,then once you get to a bus stop how long do you have to wait for the next bus,then wait for the next train once you get to the station then probably wait for another bus once you get off the train, at the end of the day repeat the process and all this waiting and walking done in Floridas heat and humidity.
IMO Its the rare person who will go through this ordeal on a daily basis when they can just jump in their car and drive door to door traffic be damned. As said before this commuter rail system is great for those that live a few minutes walk to a station and work a few minutes walk to their destination at the other end.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by BlackPeach2

Jambo, i dont live in Orlando so pardon my ignorance. The Lynx busline, does it not feed into many of the major stations? What is the relationship between Lynx and Sunrail? How are they helping or hurting each other?

I actually live in the Orlando area and Lynx operates largely as a suburban bus system with service tailored to major roadways (usually divided highways) outside of Orlando proper and with major destinations such as shopping malls or hospitals. Lynx doesn't have the stereotypical bus to rail relationship with SunRail for a number of reasons...mostly because it largely doesn't service secondary streets where most people live and alternately doesn't coincide well with SunRail service to/from varying destinations. At many stations during "peak service" the Lynx connection runs at 60 minute intervals which if either mode (SunRail or Lynx) is running off schedule could lead to conceivably a two hour interval and doesn't exactly speak well to commuter service.

http://www.golynx.com/core/fileparse...unRail_WEB.pdf

[0nyxStation]

Originally Posted by WithDisp

Almost all Lynx go to Lynx Central Station which is also a SunRail stop.
There would be little incentive to transfer if your aim was to go Downtown.

If you are trying to go from East or West and then up to Altamonte or something you would use Lynx then Sunrail, but you're talking about roughly 90 minutes to go 10-15 miles or so. There are FEW who are fiscally dependent on public transportation who work in Downtown or the northern suburbs.

WithDisp, you didnt really answer the question. 90 minutes to go 10 15 miles? Fiscally dependent?? How does Sunrail and Lynx collaborate, where is the conflict between the 2 agencies, how can mass transit become better? This is what am asking. Im trying not to assume anything about you personally, but you seem anti transit, if so thats fine.

[WithDisp]

Originally Posted by BlackPeach2

WithDisp, you didnt really answer the question. 90 minutes to go 10 15 miles? Fiscally dependent?? How does Sunrail and Lynx collaborate, where is the conflict between the 2 agencies, how can mass transit become better? This is what am asking. Im trying not to assume anything about you personally, but you seem anti transit, if so thats fine.

I don't really know how to best answer your question.

Yes, there can be some huge time chunks if you were to take Lynx to Sunrail or vice-versa. I'm sure you could time it out well, but both run fairly infrequently and there wouldn't be a great need to take both as all feasible trips would take you downtown where Lynx buses all currently go.

You can transfer from the Train to a Bus for free.

I don't think there's necessarily a conflict between the two.
Lynx is supposed to transit people all around Orange County and does a decent job of it.
SunRail is a commuter rail designed to get people to the downtown CBD.
About two or three bus lines repeat that function.


I'm not anti transit. In fact I'd like to see a Lynx expansion and some 24 hour lines.
SunRail is just a poorly planned out system, because it -wasn't- planned out.
It was a sweetheart deal for the CSX, and they converted a freight line into a commuter passenger line where one was not necessary.

I've said it ad nauseum in other posts- The Airport, UCF, Disney, Universal, the Malls, Downtown and International Drive would benefit greatly from transit. ALL of those were ignored in favor of the cheapest possible way to get federal dollars for transit.

The result, pathetic ridership numbers.

[0nyxStation]

Originally Posted by WithDisp

I've said it ad nauseum in other posts- The Airport, UCF, Disney, Universal, the Malls, Downtown and International Drive would benefit greatly from transit. ALL of those were ignored in favor of the cheapest possible way to get federal dollars for transit.

The result, pathetic ridership numbers.

I though downtown had Sunrail stops, isnt the Maglev train suppose to cover Airport, iDrive, and convention center?