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Old 08-22-2017, 08:32 AM
 
Location: West Florida
16,826 posts, read 15,031,195 times
Reputation: 23403

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I got a new office downtown about a month ago. After a few weeks of frustration with driving in and out during rush hour (and parking nightmares) I decided it was time to give Sunrail a go, from Sanford to Church St. Station. My initial thoughts are a mixed bag.

First things first: I bought a round-trip ticket yesterday morning without having checked the schedule. I got to the station at 8:16AM. The last "morning" train leaves at 8:06AM. I found this to be ridiculous, but whatever. Okay.

I went back today, this time arriving at 7:50AM. I assumed I could use my ticket today, but I guess the single passes are only good for the day of purchase. I thought this would be like a MetroCard -- i.e., a card you load money on and use whenever you want. Apparently not. Moving on.

I bought a new pass. The train arrived. There was no gate, no real verification process. Everyone just hopped on board and the train took off. During the entire trip, no one inspected tickets.

That said, the ride was smooth enough, and it was a major relief to arrive downtown without having to deal with traffic. I wish this thing had better stops throughout Orlando, as it turns out it's very convenient if one works near one of its stops. Truth be told, the only stops I saw people get off at were Church St., Lynx Central and FL Hospital.

Anyway, I can definitely see how this thing is losing tons of money. I can only imagine how many people are riding for free everyday. Why is there no gate at the station, where one has to validate their ticket before proceeding to the waiting area? You know, like true commuter rails have?

Second, for it to be successful, there absolutely HAS to be an East-West rail. One that connects UCF to downtown and beyond. Something to run along the 408. The main clients of a commuter rail or subway train are students and central business district professionals. Currently, it only serves the few people working downtown.

I can see potential, but it has to be done right. As it is right now, it's a bit of a mess. I'll continue using it, but I really hope they make some positive changes in the near future.
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:35 AM
 
12,017 posts, read 14,235,299 times
Reputation: 5981
I thought this was kind of interesting, there are subsidies for using uber which are biggest when you going to the sunrail station

https://www.wmfe.org/uber-launches-f...-florida/76996
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:06 AM
 
Location: West Florida
16,826 posts, read 15,031,195 times
Reputation: 23403
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0 View Post
I thought this was kind of interesting, there are subsidies for using uber which are biggest when you going to the sunrail station

https://www.wmfe.org/uber-launches-f...-florida/76996
Hmm... Is this only if picked up and dropped off within these boundaries? Or can one be picked up from anywhere, as long as going to a station?
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:39 AM
 
12,017 posts, read 14,235,299 times
Reputation: 5981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352 View Post
Hmm... Is this only if picked up and dropped off within these boundaries? Or can one be picked up from anywhere, as long as going to a station?
Not sure, heard a clip on the radio about that, that was it
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:39 PM
 
3,937 posts, read 5,041,201 times
Reputation: 4145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352 View Post
I got a new office downtown about a month ago. After a few weeks of frustration with driving in and out during rush hour (and parking nightmares) I decided it was time to give Sunrail a go, from Sanford to Church St. Station. My initial thoughts are a mixed bag.

I bought a new pass. The train arrived. There was no gate, no real verification process. Everyone just hopped on board and the train took off. During the entire trip, no one inspected tickets.

That said, the ride was smooth enough, and it was a major relief to arrive downtown without having to deal with traffic. I wish this thing had better stops throughout Orlando, as it turns out it's very convenient if one works near one of its stops. Truth be told, the only stops I saw people get off at were Church St., Lynx Central and FL Hospital.

Anyway, I can definitely see how this thing is losing tons of money. I can only imagine how many people are riding for free everyday. Why is there no gate at the station, where one has to validate their ticket before proceeding to the waiting area? You know, like true commuter rails have?

Second, for it to be successful, there absolutely HAS to be an East-West rail. One that connects UCF to downtown and beyond. Something to run along the 408. The main clients of a commuter rail or subway train are students and central business district professionals. Currently, it only serves the few people working downtown.

I can see potential, but it has to be done right. As it is right now, it's a bit of a mess. I'll continue using it, but I really hope they make some positive changes in the near future.
Say 25% didn't pay for tickets, the cost of any ticket inspectors would far exceed the dollar amount lost from fare evaders. CalTrain operates on a pay-then-spot check tickets model. If the rider base became large enough they could monitor this, as of now it's a non-issue.

SunRail only supports the business district, which is not where the majority of Orlando works.
It is effective at getting people into the west portion of Downtown Orlando during business hours. As a side product it does get people from Orlando into the northern suburbs like Maitland which actually house more business activity than Downtown Orlando itself.

SunRail was not meant to be successful. It was a point-of-pride project made at a time where federal funding was readily available to create worthless railroads as an economic stimulus. It would see more use if it switched to nights and weekends RATHER than commuter hours, but that was not the clause of the funding given to SunRail.

SunRail has potential in the future as lifeline to Downtown Orlando as the city grows and the suburbs swell. This however is literally a reality that may not take place for 25+ years, with the exception of Orlando getting some significant A list corporate Headquarters in the downtown region. This would only be met with more tax incentives, as currently the largest businesses operate in much cheaper and accessible corporate parks.

In 2020 all residents of Orange County will likely be addressed a new tax (either through property taxes, sales taxes, or new CFX tolls) to continue to subsidize the failing railroad which produces more traffic than it alleviates. It is rare and almost unheard of for residents to reject such funding and shut the thing down completely.



So in short, the people who love SunRail love it because they're an absolute minority who live and work within close proximity to two stations. They also love it, because their 2 dollar trip is met with an 8 dollar subsidy by the Fed/State. Those who cry to support more SunRail service haven't yet explained why Saturday service was still tanking money and the city is underhandedly continuing to funnel tax dollars to try to kickstart this bad idea.

Orlando was not designed with public transit in mind. Not to be terribly pessimistic, but I don't think our sprawl is fixable. We will just have multiple business centers rather than a CBD like transit oriented cities. Sadly, the current administration is ignoring this, and going for a system doomed to fail in 2020
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Old 08-23-2017, 08:29 AM
 
Location: West Florida
16,826 posts, read 15,031,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp View Post

Orlando was not designed with public transit in mind. Not to be terribly pessimistic, but I don't think our sprawl is fixable. We will just have multiple business centers rather than a CBD like transit oriented cities. Sadly, the current administration is ignoring this, and going for a system doomed to fail in 2020
I agree and disagree. On one hand, our sprawl is indeed an uncontrollable mess. On the other hand, I do believe downtown Orlando will one day become a true CBD. It's already headed there. I was surprised at the amount of foot traffic there is during business hours now compared to just a few years ago. And to be frank, the only other real business centers around are Lake Mary around International Pkwy and Primera, Maitland Center, and downtown (and MAYBE Sand Lake/John Young.) I don't see anywhere else really developing into major business centers.

A prime example of what Orlando MIGHT become would be downtown Miami. Up until fairly recently, there wasn't much going on there. Brickell suddenly developed into a fairly busy urban center in just a matter of a few years. If Orlando keeps up its pace with plans to develop the core, I can see things changing pretty rapidly. Let's not forget the new UCF campus coming in just a few years.
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Old 08-23-2017, 12:58 PM
 
73 posts, read 64,330 times
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If business means restaurants and bars, then downtown Orlando is/will be a "CBD".
Substantial business e.g. hospitals, factories, call centers, major retailers, etc. don't locate in old central areas.
If anyone rationally believed that projects such as Sunrail made economic sense, they wouldn't need public funds.
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Old 08-23-2017, 02:53 PM
 
3,937 posts, read 5,041,201 times
Reputation: 4145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352 View Post
I agree and disagree. On one hand, our sprawl is indeed an uncontrollable mess. On the other hand, I do believe downtown Orlando will one day become a true CBD. It's already headed there. I was surprised at the amount of foot traffic there is during business hours now compared to just a few years ago. And to be frank, the only other real business centers around are Lake Mary around International Pkwy and Primera, Maitland Center, and downtown (and MAYBE Sand Lake/John Young.) I don't see anywhere else really developing into major business centers.

Major business centers are the UCF/Central FloridaResearch Park, Darden RSC on South John Young, Metrowest & Hiawassee Office Park, Millenia Lakes, WDW/Celebration (Disney Offices).

Those are all pretty huge, and Darden is the only Fortune 500 major sized company in Orlando.


What incentive would any company have to relocate to the Downtown Cluster?!
The office space is 2-3x as expensive, parking is more of a challenge, it's harder to build to suit, and Orlando has a less than stellar, primarily uneducated workforce to draw from.

The only answer there is -big tax incentives- which ultimately can negate the allure of bringing big business here.

I don't see it getting to be a CBD anytime soon- because the city wasn't developed with that in mind.
Orlando's downtown has been residential and consumer based for decades.
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:23 AM
 
24,328 posts, read 26,739,713 times
Reputation: 19770
Downtown has an extremely low commercial vacancy rate, so many businesses do find it worth it. An incentive for businesses to choose a downtown where it's more expensive is to attract better employees. I'm from San Francisco where Salesforce is building a billion dollar something tower in the heart of San Francisco. Why? Because that is where people want to live and the good talent doesn't want to commute to say Brentwood or live in Brentwood where it's a million times less expensive. Now, Downtown Orlando still has work to do to reach true desirability, but it certainly has come a long way. Once UCF campus is built, once the bridge district is built, I can see it becoming a happening place. It's already very beautiful, it just needs more to it, so more restaurants and entertainment besides bars fill in. If recessions never occurred, it could happen much sooner, but we all know nothing goes straight up. The economy and real estate goes in cycles, so when the next recession happens, things will roll backwards a bit, but eventually will start going again even higher.
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Old 08-24-2017, 05:02 PM
 
3,937 posts, read 5,041,201 times
Reputation: 4145
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
Downtown has an extremely low commercial vacancy rate, so many businesses do find it worth it. An incentive for businesses to choose a downtown where it's more expensive is to attract better employees. I'm from San Francisco where Salesforce is building a billion dollar something tower in the heart of San Francisco. Why? Because that is where people want to live and the good talent doesn't want to commute to say Brentwood or live in Brentwood where it's a million times less expensive. Now, Downtown Orlando still has work to do to reach true desirability, but it certainly has come a long way. Once UCF campus is built, once the bridge district is built, I can see it becoming a happening place. It's already very beautiful, it just needs more to it, so more restaurants and entertainment besides bars fill in. If recessions never occurred, it could happen much sooner, but we all know nothing goes straight up. The economy and real estate goes in cycles, so when the next recession happens, things will roll backwards a bit, but eventually will start going again even higher.
Low vacancy but with minimal space all together.

SF has a strong economy but nowhere close to the economic centers in San Mateo and Santa Clara.

You're also comparing places people WANT to live, and where educated potential employees exist.

That isn't Orlando.
Also... The UCF 'Campus" is just a solid building.

This isn't Austin where UT is in the downtown cluster. The sprawl is entrenched deep, hence Sunrall Failing and downtown Orlando having a lesser economy than neighbor Maitland.
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