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Old 08-09-2007, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 86,849,999 times
Reputation: 29355

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Quote:
Originally Posted by THASPECIAL View Post
Good behavior is different for different people .....when you are with your kids in public places such as a resturant you should respect the people around you.....in your eyes you can think your kid is the most behaved in the world but that is only because you love them so much...sometimes some parents dont see certain actions as being bad behavior and if they were in public other parents might see it as bad so therefore act according to the atmosphere you are in as far as rules and behavior go
I see. That's pretty much like what I said earlier: "Nobody likes your kids as much as you do. The logical extension of that is nobody is willing to put up with them like you are."

 
Old 08-09-2007, 12:06 PM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,773,600 times
Reputation: 1460
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsFan View Post
The true words of someone that has not yet experienced parenting!

Sometimes my kids act up in public. You think I want them to? Not a chance. I cringe and hate when they act like that. But guess what.... they are children so it's bound to happen from time to time.

News flash - you acted up as a child in public too! Guaranteed. You are just too old to remember. Cut the parents some slack. Stop focusing on it and focus on your own night out. If it's that much of a bother just ask for a new table and move on with your life. If you haven't been a parent you have no clue how hard it can be sometimes to get kids to behave in public despite a parent's best efforts! They are kids, it happens. Some day when you have kids it will happen with yours. Treat those people how you want to be treated later on when it happens to you.

What a meany you are!
I just realized I'm coming in to this debate late, RWF, but with all due respect, I am a parent and I do disagree with you.

Yes, absolutely children act up in public. I'm blessed with a child who just came hard-wired to be reasonable, thank God -- it wasn't, apparently, from my genetic contribution, I can tell you that -- but even so, she still had her moments.

The thing to do is not to subject other people to it if you can possibly help it at all, and one of my favorite tactics is to leave as soon as is humanly possible, even if it means you're not done with your meal, even if you're leaving behind a cart of food you've not paid for, even if you wanted to be doing X and can't. LEAVE.

Obviously, it's not so easy to leave in certain circumstances, say, a plane. That said, though, restaurants are not airlocked.
 
Old 08-09-2007, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Northern MN
592 posts, read 2,532,938 times
Reputation: 352
Default It is what it is.

I was hoping this post would die in peace, but since it has reared its head again, I'd like to respond to the critics. For all you folks that think for some reason I am not a parent, you are wrong. My kids behave just fine in public and private because they know that is what is expected of them. Simple. Then again, when my darling children have needed or wanted attention or respect, they get it....from BOTH parents. For all those of you that think I'm somehow an evil person because I want to enjoy my wife instead of you're bratty kids, you're wrong again. If you would have taken the time to read the original post (which, by the way, I thought through very carefully attempting not to offend) I simply asked parents to monitor your kids and teach them to behave. There's been a lot of excuses made for kids that act up, some are legitimate, all of them are the parents problems and shouldn't be made into other folks problems that are forced to listen and see their behavior. I made no reference to discipline, spanking, or anything else that has reared up in various posts. I would suspect that the frustrated parents that defend kids acting out in public have issues of their own with their kids. Don't get mad at me, they are your kids, not mine, they are your problem. Deal with it. On the other hand, I certainly appreciate the posters (and you know who you are!!) that defended my post and statements, it tells me there are still folks that read posts at face value without reading into or adding meaning to them that aren't in the original post.
 
Old 08-09-2007, 11:52 PM
 
156 posts, read 507,910 times
Reputation: 135
First time posting in this forum...hello, everyone.

Reading through all ten pages here, I tend to side with those who are more "strict" and do not make excuses for bad behaviour. I whole-heartedly agree that parents need to take charge of their kids and require that they behave in public. We take our two young sons (age 2 and 5) out to dinner often and just last week we were complimented on their behaviour by someone at a neighboring table.

However, I have a kind-of spinoff question. Most people have agreed that if your child is throwing a tantrum, it's best to take them out or leave the restaraunt completely. But what if that's exactly what the child wants? They don't want to be there or they want to go home or whatever the case may be, so they start in with the tantrum. Wouldn't it be reinforcing the bad behaviour to go ahead and leave at that point? There have been a few times (one I can remember quite clearly..haha) where one of my kids wanted to get down out of the chair or something, and I made them stay put and sit nicely, which caused a tantrum. I felt that the people around me were probably being disturbed by it, but at the same time, if I let the child get out of the chair and go outside or go home, I'm just teaching the child that in order to be let out of his chair, all he has to do is scream his head off.

I guess all that is to say that maybe once in a great while, the parent actually *is* disciplining the child. Obviously with the OP, the parents/guardians were just not caring, but maybe that's not always the case. Just a thought!

aak
 
Old 08-10-2007, 08:02 AM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,773,600 times
Reputation: 1460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashbaak View Post
First time posting in this forum...hello, everyone.

Reading through all ten pages here, I tend to side with those who are more "strict" and do not make excuses for bad behaviour. I whole-heartedly agree that parents need to take charge of their kids and require that they behave in public. We take our two young sons (age 2 and 5) out to dinner often and just last week we were complimented on their behaviour by someone at a neighboring table.

However, I have a kind-of spinoff question. Most people have agreed that if your child is throwing a tantrum, it's best to take them out or leave the restaraunt completely. But what if that's exactly what the child wants? They don't want to be there or they want to go home or whatever the case may be, so they start in with the tantrum. Wouldn't it be reinforcing the bad behaviour to go ahead and leave at that point? There have been a few times (one I can remember quite clearly..haha) where one of my kids wanted to get down out of the chair or something, and I made them stay put and sit nicely, which caused a tantrum. I felt that the people around me were probably being disturbed by it, but at the same time, if I let the child get out of the chair and go outside or go home, I'm just teaching the child that in order to be let out of his chair, all he has to do is scream his head off.

I guess all that is to say that maybe once in a great while, the parent actually *is* disciplining the child. Obviously with the OP, the parents/guardians were just not caring, but maybe that's not always the case. Just a thought!

aak
In that case, I think it's relevant to ask why the child is acting that way and VERY relevant to pretend that your child is a person.

Seriously.

I think many times, people think of children as somewhere between animals and humans and therefore think that their motives are basically stupid or irrational and not worth considering until you have to train them to behave.

Instead, pretend your child is a person. The person you're dining with says, "Flashbaak, I really don't feel like going out tonight. I'm kind've tired and I'd really rather go home."

What would you do?

I'm guessing that you'd probably wipe your mouth, say, "Oh, I'm sorry -- I didn't know you were tired. Here, let's get the check and go on home."

Should you do that? After all, they're getting what they want, aren't they? And we all know that in life, we can't get what we want, so whenever someone else wants something, especially when it's different from what we want, we should oppose it.

Right?

Maybe your child is tired and just wants to go home. I do not find this unreasonable. If I were tired, I would want to go home too. MOST OF THE TIME, when children "misbehave," they do so for a reason that is understandable and logical. Children do NOT behave randomly, and they do not behave randomly because they are people. Scratch a tantrum, and you'll find a good reason behind it...just as you will with adults, surprisingly enough.

The "bad behavior" you're supposedly "reinforcing" is the child's version of the adult's statement about being tired. When your one-year-old can turn to you and say, "Flashbaak, would you mind if we went home?" then perhaps it IS "bad behavior" for that individual to throw a tantrum. For the vast majority of children, though, they lose control of their behavior because of two reasons:

a. They can't express discontent in polite language according to social conventions because they have not learned those social conventions yet.

b. They do not recognize early signs of fatigue or discontent until those signs have escalated to a crisis point and have overridden emotional controls.

The only difference between an adult and child in this context is that adults CAN express discontent politely and also notice early signs of fatigue before the loss of emotional control sets in. It's not simplistically "bad behavior."

And yes, people who are afraid of the fact that their children are people, individuals whom they cannot fully control, will argue something on the order of, "Yeah, well, if you GIVE IN, you're always gonna be GIVIN' IN, and you can't let your kid control your life!" These are folks for whom, "You're not the bossa me" is still a functional retort.

In the large number of interactions your child will have with you, having some degree of compassion for them and willingness to treat them like a real person is not the worst choice you can make.
 
Old 08-10-2007, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Chicago 'burbs'
1,022 posts, read 2,979,770 times
Reputation: 720
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
I agree. But id also like to point out that in the politically correct climate we live in alot of parents dont spank their children in public places because of the trouble they will get in when somebody reports them for it. And the kids know this. Even I, who beleives in spanking (it never hurt me) am vary wary of doing it in public because of nosey busybodies.
Once in a grocery store a little monster sitting in the cart behind me began spitting. Mom did nothing. My daughter followed the example and began spitting from the seat in my cart. I explained it was discusting and spread yucky germs and I warned her firmly 2-3 times before I took her from the cart and gave her a swat. She of course started crying and crying. An older woman observing the whole thing approached. I'm thinking "Oh, great, I'm going to get a lecture on hitting your child and the damage it does."
The woman said loud enough for the other mom to hear "It is so nice to see a parent actually taking responsibility for their childrens behavior. Good job!"
It felt great! If we don't punish our kids and teach them the proper way to behave, who will?
There is a difference between spanking and abusing your kids.
 
Old 08-10-2007, 07:01 PM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,773,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treeg26 View Post

There is a difference between spanking and abusing your kids.
Would you mind defining that difference? Really, would you mind telling me what the exact point is at which it stops being spanking and starts being abuse? Give me a few examples here so I can know?
 
Old 08-11-2007, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Chicago 'burbs'
1,022 posts, read 2,979,770 times
Reputation: 720
Improper or excissive discipline would be considered abuse. Hitting with an object. Leaving marks that last. Of course with a lot of ignorant people out there "improper or excessive" can be judged differently depending on the person. I would give my kids a swat on the butt when they were 2-4/5 years old. A spanking on the butt with my hand as they got older when it was needed. They were always told why they were getting spanked. When they got older they were asked why and ALWAYS knew. I don't spank when I'm mad. If I am mad they sit in their room until I'm calm, we talk about what happened and if it is needed they get spanked. I do not abuse my children. I discipline them as I see fit. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I do what works in my house so my children can go out into the world as respectful people that can contribute possitively to society. That is MY job as their mother.
I'd also like to add they don't get spanked for everything. It is a "final straw" when I have tried everything else and the bad behavior continues. I want my children to listen because they know it is the right thing to do, not because they are afraid of being spanked. But they are children and sometimes they will make bad decisions that need to be addressed so they learn right from wrong. It is my job to teach them that. When they are teenagers I do NOT want them to be disrespectful or making the bad choices that will get them into big time trouble. One of my friends 15 year old daughter just had a baby. She grew up in a home where she had no solid guidelines to live by and no consiquenses for her actions. We ALL have rules we need to live by, and if we don't there are consiquences. It's a part of life. I am doing what I need to do as a parent that cares how the kids are going to act now and as teenagers and adults.
By the way my kids are 8 & 10 and hardly EVER get spanked anymore. They have learned how to behave (most of the time)!
Again, I'm not asking that anyone agree with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I know spanking is a very touchy subject to a lot of people. This is just my opinion.
 
Old 08-11-2007, 11:16 AM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,773,600 times
Reputation: 1460
Quote:
Originally Posted by treeg26 View Post
Improper or excissive discipline would be considered abuse. Hitting with an object. Leaving marks that last.
I still had some questions that I was hoping you could clarify about what's "improper or excissive [sic]."

What if I strike my child's face with my hand? What if I strike my child's private parts with my hand? How about my child's rear end, but in different places throughout his rear end so that I don't leave "marks that last"? What if I leave a red welt? It "doesn't last" permanently, but disappears in about an hour. Is that okay?

Oh, and what age is okay? At least one book -- I think it was by Daniel Pearl -- recommends hitting your baby at eighteen months with a willow rod, but that seems rather severe to me. How about if I hit my baby on the face with an open hand and leave no marks? What about across his legs or on his hands or his stomach, again with an open hand and again leaving no marks?

And what age is not okay any more? Can I strike my teenage girl on her rear end with my open hand? What if she's fifteen? Sixteen? Seventeen and 364 days? What about if she's twenty? Is that okay? How about my teenage boy? Can I strike him on his rear end with my open hand? What if my teenaged daughter or son hit me back?
 
Old 08-11-2007, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 86,849,999 times
Reputation: 29355
How about a swat on the tush and leave it that instead of feigning conflation? Seems to be sensible enough. And if that works for you 17-year-old daughter, go for it.
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