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Old 08-13-2007, 11:31 AM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,772,068 times
Reputation: 1460

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Quote:
Originally Posted by treeg26 View Post
I'm sorry you don't value your mothers love. That is very very sad.
I value it a great deal, but I value it less than I know I otherwise might have. You're right, it is very sad. Sorry if this is TMI and getting off-topic here, but she was raised downright abusively -- beyond any debate about spanking and right into what almost anyone would acknowledge immediately was abuse. My mother was a vast improvement on her own mother.

I think of it now almost like this. To make an analogy with weight, my grandmother was like a person who weighed 800 pounds and raised a daughter who was 600 pounds who then lost half of that. Three hundred pounds is by no means a healthy weight...but it's an incredible improvement.

I think she did the best she could with what she had -- but I personally want to do better for my child. I think spanking really is a slippery slope for almost everyone because everyone, including you, me, my mom, my grandmother, and just about everyone else on this planet thinks she or he has common sense enough to know where the line is between spanking and abuse. That's why I kind've tend to doubt that there is a real line at all, basically.

Thank you for your kind words.

 
Old 08-16-2007, 04:09 PM
 
268 posts, read 1,005,668 times
Reputation: 138
Default Before you judge the "unruly" child

Before you make comments, stare and judge the parents of an "unruly"
child, please make sure this child is not having a tantrum or acting
out because he/she has a disability, like autism.

Being a mother of a teenager with autism, when he was younger (ages4-8), he would outright fall on the ground, kicking and screaming because he could not tolerate the over-stimulation (such as in a mall).

I would hear comments like "she need to control that child", etc...

It's not that easy for parents with young autistic children, let alone receiving petty comments like that.

So before you judge, maybe you should find out facts...
 
Old 08-16-2007, 04:25 PM
 
Location: CA
2,464 posts, read 5,686,058 times
Reputation: 2587
My husband and I went out on a "date night" without the kids to a $$$ restaurant that plays jazz... Our experience was ruined by a too-old-to-be-in-a-high-chair child who screeched her way through her dinner and ours. I assume it was her parents who sat there like bumps on a log - oblivious to the 50+ other diners who just want to go out for relaxation and a meal. If my children make a peep in a restaurant that is remotely irritating I take them outside - no exceptions. I didn't make a comment to the parents but next time I'll just move to the opposite end of the restaurant.
 
Old 08-17-2007, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 86,797,403 times
Reputation: 29355
Quote:
Originally Posted by autimom4ever View Post
Before you make comments, stare and judge the parents of an "unruly"
child, please make sure this child is not having a tantrum or acting
out because he/she has a disability, like autism.

Being a mother of a teenager with autism, when he was younger (ages4-8), he would outright fall on the ground, kicking and screaming because he could not tolerate the over-stimulation (such as in a mall).

I would hear comments like "she need to control that child", etc...

It's not that easy for parents with young autistic children, let alone receiving petty comments like that.

So before you judge, maybe you should find out facts...
Thank you for doing your best to control your child, especially under difficult circumstances. But let me point out, for the 3,472nd time, that the thread is about parents who do NOTHING to try to control their kids but rather allow them to use a restaurant as a gymnasium. Are we clear on that yet?
 
Old 08-17-2007, 02:57 AM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 15,898,310 times
Reputation: 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Thank you for doing your best to control your child, especially under difficult circumstances. But let me point out, for the 3,472nd time, that the thread is about parents who do NOTHING to try to control their kids but rather allow them to use a restaurant as a gymnasium. Are we clear on that yet?
I think the point to be made there was that although YOU may think nothing is being done to control the child, it's a no-win situation. There are different forms of behavioral disorders known now that weren't known a while back. Although I believe a lot of children are labeled as ADD or whatever who aren't and just haven't been raised well, the spectrum of what we now acknowledge as legitimate "conditions" (for lack of a better word) is larger. That doesn't give a parent free reign to allow kiddo to do whatever, disability or not, and I do think many people take it to the limit, but there are also people like the poster above who are routinely condemned and stared at in public because their child doesn't behave like an angel. I know, I'm the aunt of an autistic child. My sister has been called out in public places over her child's "tantrum" that wasn't that at all - what the other party had failed to recognize was that this child that was screaming had no words and hadn't spoken all evening, and who had acted somewhat strangely due to a situation HE can't control.

I'll go with the crowd here - a restaurant isn't a gym unless it's McDonald's, at which point all bets are off. I will also agree that Suzie and Johnny generally get by with too much - but before you say a parent is making no effort, you might want to either watch the situation a little closer or, in a spirit of forgiveness, assume that maybe you don't know all the circumstances behind what is being played out and disturbing your dinner. After all, it's an hour or so out of your life - it could be that parent and that child's whole life......and frankly, they don't owe you an explanation. We try to educate where we can if my nephew is getting the evil eye but sometimes it's futile. I'd like to add - if one child in a family has some sort of a problem, the other kids may not behave as well either. It's difficult to explain to a 5-year-old why he can't have himself a spell like his brother, or explain to a 7-year-old that she HAS to sit in a chair while her older brother crawls under the table under a power you and I can't even imagine.

I know you are talking about garden-variety children, but to look at my nephew you would never suspect there is a thing wrong with him - it's only if you pay attention that you realize he is nonverbal and quite unable to control some of his actions.
 
Old 08-17-2007, 03:02 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 86,797,403 times
Reputation: 29355
I give up.
 
Old 08-17-2007, 06:50 AM
 
2,134 posts, read 3,411,011 times
Reputation: 602
I'm coming to this thread late in the game....but for the life of me I don't understand why parents of "disabled" children would bring them to a restaurant if they knew the kids freak out. You know your child, how "disabled" they are or are not. If you have a severely autistic child, McDonalds is the way to go...not even a $4.95 buffet. People go to McDonalds and know that all bets are off regarding children and behavior. People go to other (non-fast food) restaurants and deserve not to be assaulted by bizarre behavior, screaming, running around, etc. No, it's not fair, but it's reality. If your autistic/retarded child is with you shopping and has a melt down, I think most people realize you are just doing a chore and are understanding...plus they can LEAVE the area....or you can. Nobody is held hostage by their food order.

I'll go with the crowd here - a restaurant isn't a gym unless it's McDonald's, at which point all bets are off. I will also agree that Suzie and Johnny generally get by with too much - but before you say a parent is making no effort, you might want to either watch the situation a little closer or, in a spirit of forgiveness, assume that maybe you don't know all the circumstances behind what is being played out and disturbing your dinner. After all, it's an hour or so out of your life - it could be that parent and that child's whole life......and frankly, they don't owe you an explanation. We try to educate where we can if my nephew is getting the evil eye but sometimes it's futile. I'd like to add - if one child in a family has some sort of a problem, the other kids may not behave as well either. It's difficult to explain to a 5-year-old why he can't have himself a spell like his brother, or explain to a 7-year-old that she HAS to sit in a chair while her older brother crawls under the table under a power you and I can't even imagine.

I know you are talking about garden-variety children, but to look at my nephew you would never suspect there is a thing wrong with him - it's only if you pay attention that you realize he is nonverbal and quite unable to control some of his actions.
 
Old 08-17-2007, 07:17 AM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 15,898,310 times
Reputation: 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmonellie View Post
I'm coming to this thread late in the game....but for the life of me I don't understand why parents of "disabled" children would bring them to a restaurant if they knew the kids freak out. You know your child, how "disabled" they are or are not. If you have a severely autistic child, McDonalds is the way to go...not even a $4.95 buffet. People go to McDonalds and know that all bets are off regarding children and behavior. People go to other (non-fast food) restaurants and deserve not to be assaulted by bizarre behavior, screaming, running around, etc. No, it's not fair, but it's reality. If your autistic/retarded child is with you shopping and has a melt down, I think most people realize you are just doing a chore and are understanding...plus they can LEAVE the area....or you can. Nobody is held hostage by their food order.
And see....there's the mindset - the parents don't know from one minute to the next what could happen....and that goes with any child who might have himself/herself a fit about lord only knows what - and McDonald's is NOT the way to go for some kids - autistic kids "stim" (stimulate) themselves until they are frantic with rapid eye movement or other body actions. You have NO CLUE what sets it off, or even why, and seemingly "nothing happened" - but something happened in that child's mind that triggered a response that the general public sees as a fit, even if it is low key. I can only go by the experiences with my nephew, but there have been times we have taken him to places that we simply were not sure would work and he was an absolute angel.....and the next place might have been very normal but something triggered. And yes, we do leave, as quickly as possible...unfortunately, not quickly enough for some people. Trust me, the world does not want to know about autism any more than they want to watch the Parkinson's patient try to get food to their mouth with trembling hands. Personally, I think it's because we all need to believe things like that could never happen to us, but that's just an opinion. I think people are more frightened than angry by behavior or actions which seem out of the norm. Just a personal note - my nephew has taken to uncontrolled laughing which makes a child look happy on the outside - and after an hour you're ready to scream. We don't know when he starts laughing if he's found something funny or he's starting into - hey, guess what - a gelastic seizure. Look it up. It can be caused by a tumor....do you see what I mean? He's a normal looking kid...with primarily normal behavior....so we relegate ourselves to McDonald's for our lifetime because he just might have a seizure? or a meltdown? How is he to learn to function during the times when he's able to without exposure to the outside world. He's not unteachable, but sometimes his brain is untouchable.

And no, sorry to say - most people do not cut you one iota of slack. All they see is a 9-year-old with his head thrown back screaming at the top of his lungs which came on instantly. This isn't like a normal kid whimpering and it escalating, this is a behavior that starts without warning in some cases....and all you get are ugly, ugly stares and people muttering to "get ahold of that kid". Do you stop and give an informational speech right there? Nope - you get out - and fast - and leave people with the impression your kid is uncontrollable and posting on message boards.

I agreed with the OP - if your child is normal, whatever that means, you have a duty to ensure that child is raised properly and not inflict him/her on anyone with just bad behavior. It is your moral obligation to raise your normal child not to make everyone around him/her miserable and not be oblivious to everyone else's discomfort......but people, think outside the box. There may be forces at work you don't understand...a behavioral disorder, a frightened foster child, an exhausted child, or parents who don't realize the problem is bigger than a tantrum. I hold the parents responsible for making sure that tired Little Johnny isn't acting out, but sometimes the parents are doing the best they can with the cards stacked against them - and they deserve to try a night out too. There's no place I know of that is a "handicapped only" restaurant, although there are plenty of places that cater to adults. So find them and go there and the problem is solved.
 
Old 08-17-2007, 07:39 AM
 
2,134 posts, read 3,411,011 times
Reputation: 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam I Am View Post
And see....there's the mindset - the parents don't know from one minute to the next what could happen....and that goes with any child who might have himself/herself a fit about lord only knows what - and McDonald's is NOT the way to go for some kids - autistic kids "stim" (stimulate) themselves until they are frantic with rapid eye movement or other body actions. You have NO CLUE what sets it off, or even why, and seemingly "nothing happened" - but something happened in that child's mind that triggered a response that the general public sees as a fit, even if it is low key. I can only go by the experiences with my nephew, but there have been times we have taken him to places that we simply were not sure would work and he was an absolute angel.....and the next place might have been very normal but something triggered. And yes, we do leave, as quickly as possible...unfortunately, not quickly enough for some people. Trust me, the world does not want to know about autism any more than they want to watch the Parkinson's patient try to get food to their mouth with trembling hands. Personally, I think it's because we all need to believe things like that could never happen to us, but that's just an opinion. I think people are more frightened than angry by behavior or actions which seem out of the norm. Just a personal note - my nephew has taken to uncontrolled laughing which makes a child look happy on the outside - and after an hour you're ready to scream. We don't know when he starts laughing if he's found something funny or he's starting into - hey, guess what - a gelastic seizure. Look it up. It can be caused by a tumor....do you see what I mean? He's a normal looking kid...with primarily normal behavior....so we relegate ourselves to McDonald's for our lifetime because he just might have a seizure? or a meltdown? How is he to learn to function during the times when he's able to without exposure to the outside world. He's not unteachable, but sometimes his brain is untouchable.

And no, sorry to say - most people do not cut you one iota of slack. All they see is a 9-year-old with his head thrown back screaming at the top of his lungs which came on instantly. This isn't like a normal kid whimpering and it escalating, this is a behavior that starts without warning in some cases....and all you get are ugly, ugly stares and people muttering to "get ahold of that kid". Do you stop and give an informational speech right there? Nope - you get out - and fast - and leave people with the impression your kid is uncontrollable and posting on message boards.

I agreed with the OP - if your child is normal, whatever that means, you have a duty to ensure that child is raised properly and not inflict him/her on anyone with just bad behavior. It is your moral obligation to raise your normal child not to make everyone around him/her miserable and not be oblivious to everyone else's discomfort......but people, think outside the box. There may be forces at work you don't understand...a behavioral disorder, a frightened foster child, an exhausted child, or parents who don't realize the problem is bigger than a tantrum. I hold the parents responsible for making sure that tired Little Johnny isn't acting out, but sometimes the parents are doing the best they can with the cards stacked against them - and they deserve to try a night out too. There's no place I know of that is a "handicapped only" restaurant, although there are plenty of places that cater to adults. So find them and go there and the problem is solved.
Again, I say that if you know your child is disabled in a way that they can and do act uncontrollably at any time a restaurant is not a good choice. The other patrons are trapped there. People are sympathetic for the most part, but generally, not in a restaurant. Do the parents deserve a night out, I guess as much as the next patron. They, IMHO, don't deserve to inflict the patrons of a restaurant with a child that may ruin everyones meal.
 
Old 08-17-2007, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Canada
109 posts, read 393,382 times
Reputation: 65
Default Um..

although I agree that some kids are not behaved... I think that family restaurants are just that... places for parents and kids...

Next time, maybe you want to go to an upscale restaurant where you won't find kids.

I know there are lots of little monsters out there, parents don't give a 'hoot' about their offsprings... but I also noticed a LOT of impatient adults around kids.... expecting a 4 year old to behave like a 25 year old. Kids are kids.
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