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Old 09-30-2010, 04:10 PM
Status: "60th anniversary of the polio vaccine! Hail to Pitt!" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
70,024 posts, read 60,574,028 times
Reputation: 20182

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Well, I seriously didn't know what point you were trying to make, and before you say you weren't trying to make any point (as you have said you have no "issue", aren't "getting at" anything or any of the other terms I've used), it seems like you did indeed have a point and were pursuing it fairly strongly.

I don't think going to another country (wouldn't have to be on another continent, it could be Canada) is a huge issue. Most kids aren't that wealthy that they're taking European vacations alone w/o parents between the ages of 18-20. You have no idea why these kids are "running rampant" in bars overseas. Unless you asked all of them their nationality, you don't even know that they're all American. There is plenty of binge drinking by Europeans in Europe as well.
Binge Drinking

From what I have seen and heard of teens and young adults drinking here in the US, drinking until one gets drunk is a popular activity.
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Old 09-30-2010, 04:11 PM
 
10,145 posts, read 11,544,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Yeah, I agree with you. I just think some kids may not be prepared for the freedom that they suddenly get when they're let loose in a county where 18 year olds are drinking freely, and without any restrictions.

Actually, having lived in 2 other countries where this is the case, I've seen it first hand.

So I was wondering if anybody would approach alcohol education with their kids differently, if this was to be a likely scenario for them. The reason why I'm asking is because we're going to encourage our kid to spend some time overseas as part of her college education, and I'm wondering if anybody else has taken this into account. If the answer to that is no, then that's fine.

Katiana, telling someone "Oh come on!" at the beginning of your post can be read as hostile, or at least as if my question was totally ridiculous in some way. Sorry to take it that way if that's not how you meant it.

And I don't have an "issue"; as I said, I'm curious, and I've seen American teens run rampant in bars overseas because suddenly they're allowed to drink, in the open, and nobody's going to stop them.
I am sure that what you say is true regarding freedom. But that's true whether the drinking age is 18, 19, or 21. Whenever you have a privilege that is restricted you run the risk of some people going wild once they attain the right to do something new.

For instance, there is a big push to change the national driving age to 18 for a full license. The idea is that it will decrease accidents for 16-18 year olds. I am sure it will. However, I have no doubt that it will increase accidents for 18-19 year olds. The kids who are reckless when they first get their license (like my friend's son who totalled his car while shooting a paintball gun out the window and driving at the same time) will be reckless at an older age.

I don't think drinking is any different. Those will go nuts at 18 will go nuts at 21. Increasing the age just pushes the recklessness to a different age group.

So-if you want your daughter to travel overseas where drinking is permitted at a younger age you will have to educate her about alcohol.
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Old 09-30-2010, 05:06 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 2,982,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Well, I seriously didn't know what point you were trying to make, and before you say you weren't trying to make any point (as you have said you have no "issue", aren't "getting at" anything or any of the other terms I've used), it seems like you did indeed have a point and were pursuing it fairly strongly.
I was simply asking a question, in order to guage what parents do if their kids are going to be in that situation. I only pursued it because you said you didn't know what I was getting at, and that I may have an issue with it. When I said I was just curious, that's what I meant. I didn't have any hidden agenda, so can you drop that part of it, now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I don't think going to another country (wouldn't have to be on another continent, it could be Canada) is a huge issue. Most kids aren't that wealthy that they're taking European vacations alone w/o parents between the ages of 18-20. You have no idea why these kids are "running rampant" in bars overseas. Unless you asked all of them their nationality, you don't even know that they're all American. There is plenty of binge drinking by Europeans in Europe as well.
A lot of kids backpack around Europe, as well as other countries. They attend college in other countries as well. It's not just for wealthy kids. Anyway, that's beside the point. My question was regarding the sudden change in drinking age for American kids from 21 to 18, and how that might effect how you educate them about alcohol, should they end up in that situation. That some kids may find themselves over-doing it given the sudden freedom to drink without legal consequences at that age, and would you do anything prior to them going to prepare them for that.

And I do have an idea why kids get out of control in bars in other countries, it's because they have said to me, in conversation (to paraphrase) "because they aren't allowed to do it at home." You know they're American because A) they speak and B) you ask them where they're from. I'm not maligning them for this, either, I'm just saying it happens. It's not the only reason, but it contributes to it, as far as I can see.

And you're quite right about Europeans binge drinking in Europe, you've got no argument from me about that. I think it happens pretty much everywhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post

Binge Drinking

From what I have seen and heard of teens and young adults drinking here in the US, drinking until one gets drunk is a popular activity.
No doubt.
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Old 09-30-2010, 05:14 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 2,982,837 times
Reputation: 7225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
I am sure that what you say is true regarding freedom. But that's true whether the drinking age is 18, 19, or 21. Whenever you have a privilege that is restricted you run the risk of some people going wild once they attain the right to do something new.

For instance, there is a big push to change the national driving age to 18 for a full license. The idea is that it will decrease accidents for 16-18 year olds. I am sure it will. However, I have no doubt that it will increase accidents for 18-19 year olds. The kids who are reckless when they first get their license (like my friend's son who totalled his car while shooting a paintball gun out the window and driving at the same time) will be reckless at an older age.

I don't think drinking is any different. Those will go nuts at 18 will go nuts at 21. Increasing the age just pushes the recklessness to a different age group.

So-if you want your daughter to travel overseas where drinking is permitted at a younger age you will have to educate her about alcohol.
I totally agree with you. That was what I asked in the first place, how do you prepare a kid that's going where there's a younger drinking age.

I think your post is exactly what I was talking about, but possibly better put.

For some reason (not you) it got twisted around, somewhere.
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Old 09-30-2010, 05:48 PM
 
22,188 posts, read 13,002,469 times
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I backpacked through Europe before I was 21. I'd never had a drink. Wasn't something I did for a variety of reasons. The group of friends I went with weren't drinkers. I had my first glass of wine in Italy. None of us went wild and thought "Oh, wow. We can booze it up since our parents aren't here." But we found out, rather quickly, that a loaf of bread, a piece of cheese and a bottle of wine made for a cheap meal. I left home with certain values and they didn't suddenly change because I was in a foreign country.

When I sent my own kids off to explore the world they got the same lectures I'd gotten from my parents about keeping safe, spending money, not getting into trouble. None of them left as drinkers and none of them came home suddenly hitting the booze.

Part of this may be that we're all kind of crunchy granola health food types and too much booze is just not good for your liver. San Peligrino. Coke with lemon. There's all kinds of things to substitute overseas. But the kids who want to drink are going to drink whether they're in Malibu or Dayton or Lucerne.
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,120 posts, read 1,601,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerbaby112 View Post
To be quite honest there is no difference between 16 or 21 year old. I know many 16 year olds who are far more responsible than 21 year olds. Alcohol is legal, drugs are not.
NO, NO, NO. Did someone miss the drugs/alcohol unit in middle school health? The brain is not fully developed until after the teenage years, therefore if a teen starts drinking on a regular basis, it messes up their brain development a whole lot more than if they started at age 21. In fact, there is actually a lot of evidence that the brain is not developed until age 24.

Yes, you do have to be responsible to drinking alcohol. Yes, there are many 16 year olds who are more responsible than many 21 year olds. But you're very naive to think that there is no difference between a 16 year old and a 21 year old in terms of brain development and how drinking affects it.
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,120 posts, read 1,601,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTR36 View Post
Because if you see my post you can see where I typed where they have seen how alcohol destroys families. My BIL is an alcoholic. My brother is a recovering alcoholic. My uncle is an alcoholic and drug addict. Enough proof that alcohol destroys families? Yes, I think so.
What's you're point? Just because I have the a glass of wine or 2 beers at a party doesn't make me an alcoholic.

You're comparing alcoholism to drinking in moderation, which are two very different things.
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:23 PM
 
707 posts, read 834,514 times
Reputation: 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by strawflower View Post
NO, NO, NO. Did someone miss the drugs/alcohol unit in middle school health? The brain is not fully developed until after the teenage years, therefore if a teen starts drinking on a regular basis, it messes up their brain development a whole lot more than if they started at age 21. In fact, there is actually a lot of evidence that the brain is not developed until age 24.

Yes, you do have to be responsible to drinking alcohol. Yes, there are many 16 year olds who are more responsible than many 21 year olds. But you're very naive to think that there is no difference between a 16 year old and a 21 year old in terms of brain development and how drinking affects it.

Brain reasearch shows that the human brain goes through a slow maturation process between ages 10 through 25. So technically if you put it that way we shouldnt be drinking until 26 when our brain is fully developed. There appears to be absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the light or moderate consumption of alcohol by persons under the age of 21 causes any brain impairment or harm.


"Drinking Alcohol Damages Teenagers’ Brains"




Also here is a article where it states:

"Teenagers who report drinking alcohol with their parents are less likely than others to have either consumed alcohol or abused it in recent weeks according to a nation-wide study of over 6,200 teenagers in 242 communities across the U.S."

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/You...098982193.html
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:31 PM
Status: "60th anniversary of the polio vaccine! Hail to Pitt!" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
70,024 posts, read 60,574,028 times
Reputation: 20182
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
I was simply asking a question, in order to guage what parents do if their kids are going to be in that situation. I only pursued it because you said you didn't know what I was getting at, and that I may have an issue with it. When I said I was just curious, that's what I meant. I didn't have any hidden agenda, so can you drop that part of it, now?
So after several posts, it turns out that you have talked to American students in European bars who, while drunk, tell you they are behaving the way they are b/c they can't do this at home.

First of all, most colleges do not have study abroad programs for freshmen, so many of the kids you've talked to are actually "of age". Maybe they mean they're on vacation, or the police in their college town are stricter about drinking. I've heard that the police in some college towns will arrest kids for walking home drunk, ie, public drunkeness. Some are underage, granted, and can't get into a bar in most states w/o a fake ID, which seem to be ubiquitous on college campuses. But I'd seriously doubt that it's the first time these kids have drunk alcohol.

When my kids did study abroad, there were penalties, e.g. getting sent home, for getting in trouble, stuff like that. So I would think that might curb some drinking. Or not.
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:07 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 2,982,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
So after several posts, it turns out that you have talked to American students in European bars who, while drunk, tell you they are behaving the way they are b/c they can't do this at home.

First of all, most colleges do not have study abroad programs for freshmen, so many of the kids you've talked to are actually "of age". Maybe they mean they're on vacation, or the police in their college town are stricter about drinking. I've heard that the police in some college towns will arrest kids for walking home drunk, ie, public drunkeness. Some are underage, granted, and can't get into a bar in most states w/o a fake ID, which seem to be ubiquitous on college campuses. But I'd seriously doubt that it's the first time these kids have drunk alcohol.

When my kids did study abroad, there were penalties, e.g. getting sent home, for getting in trouble, stuff like that. So I would think that might curb some drinking. Or not.
None of this has anything to do with what I posted. I was asking if you (everybody you) made any special prep with them knowing they could go and drink at a younger age, if your main deterrent up till now was that you can't drink until you're 21. That's it. You were the one that kept pushing the point, because you didn't understand what I was asking, and you still think I have an agenda. I don't.

I'm not sure what you found so offensive about my post, but you've taken it way too seriously. Why are you so upset that I've met American kids in bars that are going a bit crazy with their new freedom? I've met plenty of them who've just turned 21, that do the same thing here. And Europeans, and Australians, who do the same thing in their own countries. I'm not speaking badly about them, just recounting my experiences.

This topic was about how we educate our children about alcohol, and I was asking a question pertaining to that topic. There's nothing sinister about it.
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