U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-06-2010, 01:06 AM
 
47,585 posts, read 36,011,377 times
Reputation: 21593

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
It does strike blacks disproportionately, but it's a problem related to poverty, not skin color.
It's not poverty - money doesn't make one more moral.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-06-2010, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Southern California
3,598 posts, read 2,563,482 times
Reputation: 2770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbluelandrover View Post
Your "FIX" is way too simplistic and I am speaking from the perspective of a black woman. I grew up lower middle class. I went to school with kids that lived in housing projects. I made it and so did my husband and we did not have any special handouts, just a mindset of p.u.s.h. (push until something happens). Blacks have been in the US since the 1600's (True liberation occured after the Civil Rights Movement). I talked with my parents and elders about the drastic shift in mentality that has occured in Black America. It's like a change in mentality has sunk in. There are no factory jobs so we have to shift to higher level thinking. Even then there is a lot of irresponsible behavior that I have witnessed from my own family members.

I don't buy the "lack of opportunity speech". Yes, there IS discrimination, but I closely observe my Latino, African and Indian neighbors. They will come to the US and can't speak the language BUT they pull together and help another out. They will start landscaping businesses, hair braiding salons, study technology and engineering and make something happen. Our people used to do this but then we lost that desire to 'own'.

In the 60's and 70's around 70% of black families were married. Now we have a 70% single parent household statistic. When Bill Cosby told "our" people to stop having babies out of wedlock and be more responsible and get education---man o' man folks went nuts!.
You bring up immigrants, and I think it is a good point. My grandpa was a child of immigrants. Yes, he was white, but he didn't have an easy life. He and his siblings didn't speak English until they started school. He grew up on a dairy farm in extreme northwestern Wisconsin, which most people know is a lot of work. Yes, he had to drop out of school after ninth grade because his dad got sick. However, he wanted more. Did he ask the government for anything? Nope. He worked in exchange for a ride into town every day in order to attend vocational school. Eventually, he, my grandma, and my aunts moved out here to California. Life was hard at first, but they made it. They both went back and finished school. My grandpa worked at a job for 26 years and didn't miss a single day of work. Yes, his work employed non-whites, too. The city was then over 50% Hispanic. While he had a very tough life, he never asked for anything. He worked for all he had.

Even around here there is a huge difference. I live in the house that he bought in 1954. The area was then poor and is still poor. However, the education system has gone to hell, it is overrun with gangs, and people just wait for the next thing the government will give them. I don't think it's just a black thing, but I don't think it's just a poverty thing either. I think it has to do with the culture of the area and other things.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2010, 01:16 PM
Status: "I hate the holidays." (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Arlington, Virginia
15,240 posts, read 17,986,237 times
Reputation: 16021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Repubocrat View Post
I think this country is experiencing a parenting crisis but I was watching a show on A&E the other day and I was shocked. Some of the young Black kids at the age 14 are already involved in murders and robberies, being prosecuted as adults. What in the hell has gone wrong here? When I was 14, I used to dream about going to college and being and productive member of society? Can anybody describe the type of environment these kids are being raised in? It is very sad and I think these kids could be our future leaders if they only had the proper guidance
As a black guy who grew up in a single parent home I'll chime in.

The number one problem is NO fathers. Fathers are not in the home. They've either left or been taken out of the home due to drugs, jail, etc. That leaves the mothers who have to put food on the table who are too busy doing that so they leave their kids in an enviroment where they see negative behavior happening 24/7 and thinking that's what will get you ahead.

Role models, we need good role models who aren't Lebron James and are accessible to the average kid in their neighborhood.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2010, 04:44 PM
 
25,286 posts, read 27,459,275 times
Reputation: 34590
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Umm, not sure I agree with this part of your post. I grew up in a single parent household after my mother divorced my father when I was about 18 months old. She did not remarry until I was 23.

While we weren't wealthy, by any means, I did not have difficulties achieving in school or understanding how an "adult should function"(??). I'm not sure how being raised by a single parent made me less "healthy" or less "happy" or less "socially adjusted". And this was in the 60's, when single parent families were less common than they are today. So while I may have been an oddity amongst my peers, briefly, ultimately nobody really cared, and I wasn't any of those things you mentioned.

Now if you are living in crushing poverty directly as a result of being a single parent, that's a different issue, and perhaps being blindingly poor is what causes some of the problems you mentioned, not the single parent aspect.
Well, you make the critical mistake of taking a particular instance and applying it universally. Sure things worked out with you. But I'm talking statistically here, something that I noted in my post. You chose to ignore that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-27-2010, 12:06 PM
 
1 posts, read 697 times
Reputation: 13
One must consider the historical content concerning the African American Family and how the Family is affected today. Your feeling is heart felt. Our children are in a crisis because of Identity and self awareness, a connection is needed for our children to understand their value, no matter what society says or promote. Theirs more going on then just environment, Iíve study our condition for the last 30 years and I understand on various levels, the cause and effect of perception of self. Jg_dennis@msn.com
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-27-2010, 06:18 PM
 
4,887 posts, read 2,891,338 times
Reputation: 4598
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I can't argue with your experience or your logic. I guess I was just trying to give the "university politically correct" answer to the question. So many people enter this topic and want to paint a (forgive the pun) black and white picture. They want to boil it down to the problem being the race itself, not the conditions that have created the situation as it stands.
But no one can fix or change the past or the "conditions" that led to anything. And that excuse only goes so far and for so many generations.

A child from the "projects" or a low-income housing development in my town attends the same public schools from day one that all the other kids do - kids of physicians, kids of the self-employed, kids of corporate type big wigs...so what's the cause/reason for the huge difference in grades/attitudes/trouble between the "not so well-off" kids and the rest?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-27-2010, 06:21 PM
 
4,887 posts, read 2,891,338 times
Reputation: 4598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanboy395 View Post
As a black guy who grew up in a single parent home I'll chime in.

The number one problem is NO fathers. Fathers are not in the home. They've either left or been taken out of the home due to drugs, jail, etc. That leaves the mothers who have to put food on the table who are too busy doing that so they leave their kids in an enviroment where they see negative behavior happening 24/7 and thinking that's what will get you ahead.

Role models, we need good role models who aren't Lebron James and are accessible to the average kid in their neighborhood.
Working single mothers are great role models for their children.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-27-2010, 06:49 PM
 
10,271 posts, read 7,779,010 times
Reputation: 8364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustmaker View Post
But no one can fix or change the past or the "conditions" that led to anything. And that excuse only goes so far and for so many generations.

A child from the "projects" or a low-income housing development in my town attends the same public schools from day one that all the other kids do - kids of physicians, kids of the self-employed, kids of corporate type big wigs...so what's the cause/reason for the huge difference in grades/attitudes/trouble between the "not so well-off" kids and the rest?
Actually, the children of the corporate big wigs probably go to private elite schools not to their local public school unless the school is in an elite district which has very little poverty. For example the schools near me in The Woodlands, TX have only about 2% of children on free lunch. Most of the population is quite well-to-do.

Some of the difference is that the parents may not feel very comfortable with school as they did not do well. Their attitude can make a big difference in how comfortable their child feels and how well s/he does. In the schools where I taught and where there were about 80% of students receiving free lunch, we had parents who spoke little English (this was a majority Mexican school). This was a high school. My honors kids were just as bright as most suburban kids and many of them did go on to college and good educations, but some really bright kids were lost because of their home situations. The boy whose mother died and who had several friends gunned down was one. The girls who had to stay out of school to babysit the younger children or translate for mom at the clinic were some others. These were not necessarily families on welfare, btw. Often the dad worked two jobs, but mom often had lots of children and limited English so she might not work. There was also the immigration requirement that meant the whole family often had to return to Mexico and renew their documents each year, so kids would be pulled out of school for several weeks for that. I had one wonderful honors student who always managed to bring her work with her and turn it in when she returned but that was an exception to the general rule.

In the school where my friend taught in the inner city (98% black) which had a similar percentage on free lunch, many of the parents had never learned to read themselves and many of them were pretty intimidated by teachers and administrators. Many of her students were homeless. They had no place to do their homework. They often would sneak food for their baby brothers and sisters who got nothing. Some of them had addicts or alcoholics for parents.
They would come to school in the Chicago winters with no gloves, hats, winter coats or boots to keep them warm (she and I often bought extra stuff at garage sales and gave it to them). Still, she managed to teach many of them to read. Over the years, we saw progress. The first children learned to read and were given books through our buying them at garage sales (when she asked that group to bring in a book during literacy week, they mostly had ONLY a Bible or a cookbook in their own homes). She got them library cards, but most could not get to the library as the neighborhoods were unsafe and their parents had other children to care for. When they grew up, though, while they did not get away from the ghetto, they did value learning and as she began to teach their children, she saw children who had books at home and parents who read to them. She has the grand children now and has high hopes that some of them will make it out of the ghetto and into decent jobs.

I think if you had to live in your car, had no warm clothing during the winter, had only a minimum of food (provided by the schools often), you might have problems in school too. Until we can solve the social problems, we don't get as far as we should.

OTOH, there *are* schools that beat the odds.

Uncovering the

Quote:
From the original 90/90/90 research of more than a decade ago (Reeves, 2004) to more recent analyses of high-poverty, high-minority schools where more than 90 percent of students meet academic standards (Chenoweth, 2007; Leader & Stern, 2008), the conclusions are consistent with research from previous decades. There is no question that economic deprivation clearly has an adverse impact on student achievement, as the effects of poverty, poor housing, inadequate medical care and many other factors are reflected in lower achievement by poor students.
Quote:
Our research on the 90/90/90 Schools included both site visits and analyses of accountability data. The site visits allowed us to conduct a categorical analysis of instructional practices. In the same manner that the authors of In Search Of Excellence (Peters and Waterman, 1982) identified the common practices of excellent organizations, we sought to identify the extent to which there was a common set of behaviors exhibited by the leaders and teachers in schools with high achievement, high minority enrollment, and high poverty levels. As a result, we found five characteristics that were common to all 90/90/90 Schools. These characteristics were:

A focus on academic achievement
Clear curriculum choices
Frequent assessment of student progress and multiple opportunities for improvement
An emphasis on nonfiction writing
Collaborative scoring of student work
Dorothy
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-27-2010, 08:07 PM
 
4,887 posts, read 2,891,338 times
Reputation: 4598
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Actually, the children of the corporate big wigs probably go to private elite schools not to their local public school unless the school is in an elite district which has very little poverty. For example the schools near me in The Woodlands, TX have only about 2% of children on free lunch. Most of the population is quite well-to-do.
Actually, not all of them. And don't think I'm not surprised, I am. My kids don't attend the public school system, they attend an "elite" private school and it ain't what it was when I was there. A lot more relaxed, a lot less "look at me and my mommy's $80K car". Although one kid did just get a Bentley for his birthday. But few and far between as compared to 20+ years ago (and that's when I graduated..20+ years ago, not quite 25).

And this is where I live, so trust me that I know what it is and I will trust you that you have the dirt on what goes on where you live.

Quote:
Some of the difference is that the parents may not feel very comfortable with school as they did not do well. Their attitude can make a big difference in how comfortable their child feels and how well s/he does.
I see this as an excuse. My mom didn't do so gud in skol so I ain't gunna either? This is 2010. What kind of a moron puts that onus on their child? And how is a taxpayer supposed to fix that?

Quote:
In the schools where I taught and where there were about 80% of students receiving free lunch, we had parents who spoke little English (this was a majority Mexican school). This was a high school. My honors kids were just as bright as most suburban kids and many of them did go on to college and good educations, but some really bright kids were lost because of their home situations. The boy whose mother died and who had several friends gunned down was one. The girls who had to stay out of school to babysit the younger children or translate for mom at the clinic were some others. These were not necessarily families on welfare, btw. Often the dad worked two jobs, but mom often had lots of children and limited English so she might not work. There was also the immigration requirement that meant the whole family often had to return to Mexico and renew their documents each year, so kids would be pulled out of school for several weeks for that. I had one wonderful honors student who always managed to bring her work with her and turn it in when she returned but that was an exception to the general rule.
So basically it's not the school or the teachers, it's the home life. And building a 30M dollar school at the tax payers expense isn't going to change a thing. Public and Abbot school districts, well you can put lipstick on a pig to the tune of tens of millions and it changes nothing.

Quote:
In the school where my friend taught in the inner city (98% black) which had a similar percentage on free lunch, many of the parents had never learned to read themselves and many of them were pretty intimidated by teachers and administrators. Many of her students were homeless. They had no place to do their homework. They often would sneak food for their baby brothers and sisters who got nothing. Some of them had addicts or alcoholics for parents.
In 2010, where I live, this is not the case. Your black, you have kids, you get funded. From low-income to section 8 to project living. Your complex gets knocked down? You get a voucher to move to another town. Happened 2x in the past 15 years. And the first time it happened, I moved out of my complex. Adults playing bball all day and all night long? Bent the rims, ripped off the nets, intimidated the long-standing residents from bringing their kids...court got closed.

Quote:
They would come to school in the Chicago winters with no gloves, hats, winter coats or boots to keep them warm (she and I often bought extra stuff at garage sales and gave it to them). Still, she managed to teach many of them to read. Over the years, we saw progress. The first children learned to read and were given books through our buying them at garage sales (when she asked that group to bring in a book during literacy week, they mostly had ONLY a Bible or a cookbook in their own homes). She got them library cards, but most could not get to the library as the neighborhoods were unsafe and their parents had other children to care for. When they grew up, though, while they did not get away from the ghetto, they did value learning and as she began to teach their children, she saw children who had books at home and parents who read to them. She has the grand children now and has high hopes that some of them will make it out of the ghetto and into decent jobs.
They come to school in the NJ winters without coats, gloves or hats. But mamma's rocking a weave and some killer nails.

Quote:
I think if you had to live in your car, had no warm clothing during the winter, had only a minimum of food (provided by the schools often), you might have problems in school too. Until we can solve the social problems, we don't get as far as we should.
But that's not those who lives in low-income or subsidized housing having issues in schools. It is not inclusive of those who live on the gov't dime and act up, bring a gun, knife, wears a red or blue t-shirt (since bandannas have been banned) to school. Those who LOOK for trouble instead of avoiding it. Those who take what they are given and feel they are entitled to it. And they aren't homeless. Their parents are my peers, who had the same education available to them that my other friends who attended the same damn public school they did - and are successful. None of them had anyone gunned down on them...it's a LIFESTYLE with a lot of ignorance passed along from generation to generation.

Liberal social programs ARE broken. In 2010, how does one live in a car with kids and for how long? Illegals? No job? Where's the help? Can't get it? Don't qualify for it? That's absurd - and shows how broken the system is. And guess what? The idiots living on the tax-payers dimes and abusing it are taking up the space and the $$ for those who NEED the help to get a leg up. Which is who the social programs were intended FOR. Not for those who generation after generation LIVE off of it.

I've seen too much, I see too much. I feel for those who can't get the help they need b/c others are abusing the system. I can't change that. But they aren't the ones beating up cops at a HS dance (along with their parents). They aren't the ones with a roof over their heads selling their food-bank food on the street. They aren't the ones bringing knives to school and stabbing a sibling's boyfriend in the back because his "gang" told him " you sista don't need to take no 'buse". Because going to jail for murder is a MUCH better solution...and the mother of the abusive boyfriend rounds up her community and makes up t-shirts and has a "parade" in the name of "violence" for her son who choked and beat a teen aged girl.

Cultural? No. Stupid, stupid, stupid, entitled, entitled, entitled, ignorant, ignorant, ignorant...and fuled by the "our culture doesn't know any better" BS excuse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-27-2010, 08:29 PM
 
22,246 posts, read 13,070,329 times
Reputation: 23833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanboy395 View Post
As a black guy who grew up in a single parent home I'll chime in.

The number one problem is NO fathers. Fathers are not in the home. They've either left or been taken out of the home due to drugs, jail, etc. That leaves the mothers who have to put food on the table who are too busy doing that so they leave their kids in an enviroment where they see negative behavior happening 24/7 and thinking that's what will get you ahead.

Role models, we need good role models who aren't Lebron James and are accessible to the average kid in their neighborhood.
You are not a "black guy". You are a very smart, wise black MAN. This is one terrific post!! I applaud you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:36 AM.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top