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Old 01-12-2011, 01:34 PM
 
1,302 posts, read 1,530,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmancomics View Post
I wasn't going to post until I read the whole thread but I had to respond to these:



I wholeheartedly agree with you. My parents structured our day every day when we were younger. We were only allowed one hour of tv a day and one hour of playing outside and neither one was allowed until our homework was done. They became much more relaxed when we entered junior high and high school and I have wished they hadn't ever since I graduated.

In junior high I had more friends than in elementary school and I started focusing on the social aspect of school more than the academic. I went from advanced classes to "regular" classes in subjects like history and science because of this and only stayed in advanced classes in subjects that I liked. I got more and more into "hanging out" as I got older and, since high school is easy as hell to graduate and I had enough credits to graduate early, I spent my senior year pretty much just goofing off. All the while my parents didn't mind because my grades were still "good" but they didn't "micro manage" so I kept them happy and off my back by making sure I took easy classes so my GPA stayed at 3.0 or above. But what good is a 3.0 GPA when my math classes were remedial?

By the time graduation came around I wasn't ready for what lay ahead. I hadn't applied to any colleges other than my first choice and I wasn't accepted to that one so I floundered in community college for the next 8 years. The bad habits that I developed came back to bite me on the butt and I dropped classes left and right. I didn't take any math classes past high school gometry because I had bad experiences with two teachers, had to the take the class three times (aced it on the third try) and it wasn't a requirement to take any more math to graduate.

By the time I was 26 it wasn't just about school anymore. I was on my own now so I had to get a steady job if I didn't want to move back in with mom and dad (and I have too much pride for that) and it just wasn't feasable to work full time and be a full time student. I went to a vocational school for 6 months and got myself a good blue collar job with good benefits.

I consider myself successful because I live in my own home in a decent neighborhood, married a beautiful and wonderful woman and didn't get into alcohol or drugs or got anyone pregnant on the way here but I still regret not finishing my education because it resulted in my never having accomplished any of my career goals. Yeah, I like what I do for a living but I'd like doing what I WANTED to do even more and I'm sure I would've had a better income had I accomplished my goals. That would've resulted in my wife and I being able to afford to live in a better neighborhood with better schools and not having to sacrifice as much to live there.

So when we have children you can bet your sweet petooti that they're going to have "structured fun" and you can bet that it'll last until they get that college diploma.



Yes, but you owe that to your parents' strictness having instilled the discipline that you and your brother needed to not let your experience with drugs and alcohol turn into addiction.
So now you are a grown man making excuses as to why you can't accomplish your dreams and blaming your parents? Interesting.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:41 PM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,728,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
Parenting is overrated. The Chinese kid might get into Harvard, and maybe another kid will get into Michigan State. But that doesn't determine your entire life.
If you look at your comment in the other thread, in your case, the way you were parented could certainly be called overrated.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:40 PM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,366,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Did she say what it was that she did that showed extreme disrepect to her father?
Sorry, it was to her mother, not father as I posted. I don't think she mentioned it in the radio interview. I tried listening to it again but my toddler was running around laughing while my husband chased her.

Amy Chua: "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" | The Diane Rehm Show from WAMU and NPR

The problem I see with this article is she appears to be comparing Western mothers to Chinese mothers. However, what she is comparing is permissive parenting to authoritative parenting (nothing new), with a little drama which is probably why they don't need drama classes She clarifies this in her radio interview admitting that her parenting style can be found across cultures and nationalities.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:52 PM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,366,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakija9311 View Post
I saw Amy interviewed not long ago. I agree with most of her philosophy.


Learning, in the old days, was not "fun". We took it seriously. Not everything was a game. Not everybody won. Some lost. Not everybody passed every grade. Not everybody got a trophy. Not everybody was just the best darn kid all the time no matter what they did.

As Amy says, she made some mistakes and regretted them, but learned from them. She also notes that western kids watch too much TV and play with video games far too much. Who can dispute that? Honestly.

We can't have it both ways, folks. We can't have the brightest scientists and mathmaticians; we can't have the best musicians without some very hard work, and western mothers just don't think their children should have to work that hard.

There's a balance to be found. School should NOT be fun. Recess is for fun; classes are for diligent and sincere work. There is no dicipline in today's schools. Mothers think each and every child should be placated and coaxed with entertaining classes and busy classrooms instead of demanded to sit up and be quiet and do their work. WHAT IS WRONG WITH A LITTLE SELF RESTRAINT AND DICIPLINE TAUGHT???

I agree with Amy.
True, but the author (Amy??), also said that she was a different kind of child and that the way her parents raised her worked very well for her personality type.

One thing I agree with the author is that things are not fun until you become good at it, which is why memorizing some things should be part of education. That is the boring part of education but that shouldn't be the only way to learn. Unfortunately, many students are taught by individuals who say, "You don't need to know why. You just need to do it my way." That makes education boring and IMHO, terrible.

Here in Florida, a new math book has been adopted and the first complaint I heard was, "Why do we have to teach division this way?" When I looked at the book (I am not a teacher), I told my friend, "Oh, they just raised the bar. They expect your students to have number sense and not just memorize algorithms.
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Old 01-12-2011, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Denver area
21,142 posts, read 22,123,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakija9311 View Post
I saw Amy interviewed not long ago. I agree with most of her philosophy.


Learning, in the old days, was not "fun". We took it seriously. Not everything was a game. Not everybody won. Some lost. Not everybody passed every grade. Not everybody got a trophy. Not everybody was just the best darn kid all the time no matter what they did.

As Amy says, she made some mistakes and regretted them, but learned from them. She also notes that western kids watch too much TV and play with video games far too much. Who can dispute that? Honestly.

We can't have it both ways, folks. We can't have the brightest scientists and mathmaticians; we can't have the best musicians without some very hard work, and western mothers just don't think their children should have to work that hard.

There's a balance to be found. School should NOT be fun. Recess is for fun; classes are for diligent and sincere work. There is no dicipline in today's schools. Mothers think each and every child should be placated and coaxed with entertaining classes and busy classrooms instead of demanded to sit up and be quiet and do their work. WHAT IS WRONG WITH A LITTLE SELF RESTRAINT AND DICIPLINE TAUGHT???

I agree with Amy.
Personally, I find this whole post offensive. I believe most parents (at least the ones I know) fall somewhere in between. Extremism isn't positive on either end of the spectrum. If we were all scientists, mathematicians or classical musicians (I'm just guessing by "best musicians" you're not including most popular music), it wouldn't be so sought after. People forget that it takes many different talents to have a balanced society. Many of our best ideas and entrepreneurs were not borne of the kind of success you are limiting your definition to. Wonder how many pastors, special ed teachers, non-classical artists, hospice workers, etc come from that mold? Are they not successful people contributing to society in an important way?

ETA - also...people brought up in this model often are unwilling or unable to challenge authority - which is a pretty important thing to be able to do whether it's at school, at work or when your political leaders are leading you down a path which you'd rather not go.

Last edited by maciesmom; 01-12-2011 at 06:25 PM..
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:43 PM
 
1,964 posts, read 4,431,452 times
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I jokingly mentioned this Chinese parenting hangup to one of my brainy neurotic PhD co-workers and being Chinese-American, she had a different take on the whole debate. She feels that Chua is actually directing her attack at younger Chinese-Americans now starting to raise families.

As she explained, many of my colleague's generation are highly accomplished in their careers, and by choice or happenstance seem to be marrying outside of their race, which is to be expected. But she feels that Chua is goading them to remember their roots & heritage when rearing their own kids. It's as if Chua is screaming you didn't raise yourself: you owe your success to strict Asian discipline. And don't forget it or your children will end-up dumb, pregnant & strung-out on drugs (like whites, blacks or latinos )
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,701,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisan View Post
Sorry, it was to her mother, not father as I posted. I don't think she mentioned it in the radio interview. I tried listening to it again but my toddler was running around laughing while my husband chased her.

Amy Chua: "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" | The Diane Rehm Show from WAMU and NPR

The problem I see with this article is she appears to be comparing Western mothers to Chinese mothers. However, what she is comparing is permissive parenting to authoritative parenting (nothing new), with a little drama which is probably why they don't need drama classes She clarifies this in her radio interview admitting that her parenting style can be found across cultures and nationalities.
She's actually comparing permissive with AUTHORITARIAN. There is a big difference between authoritative parenting and authoritarian parenting. I've read a few article over the past decade discussing how an authoritative parenting style tend to yield the best developmental results. It is the happy middle ground between the two polar extremes.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:26 PM
 
5,945 posts, read 12,726,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
I guess it all depends on your definition of "successful"....I know plenty of successful people (using a variety of definitions of "successful"). Some who were raised in that model and some who weren't.<shrugs>. There are plusses and minuses - just like anything else, rarely is one thing clearly "best".
As usual - I agree with macies mom.

I think, also, it really depends on the personality types of the children. I think I would have flourished with a "chinese mother" approach, but my younger sister would have become suicidal. Totally different personality types.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:53 AM
 
Location: state of procrastination
3,487 posts, read 6,129,703 times
Reputation: 2883
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Now miyu, understand that your posts are mostly stereotype. The idea that western parents are, for the most part, in any way laissez-faire with their kids' futures is no less a stereotype than the Chinese mother stereotype. Which, I'd like to point out, is being furthered by both you and Ms Chua.

Exhibit B.

I would put it to you if the mothers with the parenting style we're talking about had to pick whether their children were happy or driven, that they'll pick driven. And I don't see how anybody who is constantly chasing perfection and has been berated about not being good enough their entire lives and into adulthood are going to end up the least bit happy, or even mildly content.
Duh... I thought that pretty much everyone would understand that we are all working from stereotypes here. Whether the stereotypes are more correct or incorrect is the key here. Chinese people acting like oppressed robots with no shred of creativity is really a bad, unfair, and incorrect stereotype. Laissez-faire is not a bad stereotype. It is mostly true because it implies that Western parents allow their kids to find their own talents through a variety of activities and play of their own child's preference. It does not mean that they do no parenting. It means they don't micromanage. But maybe they do micromanage because a stereotype of the american dad is pushing their son into sports and other manly activities to prove their manhood.

You don't understand the concept of "chasing perfection". This perfection could be easily attained. Getting 100% on a test is very easy if you understand what is being taught. Asian parents and children realize this. Most of the time, 90% is just dandy as long as your GPA goes unscathed so you won't jeopardize chances of college. The mom isn't asking the child to be a popular quarterback or prom queen. That kind of perfection is much harder to obtain.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:57 AM
 
Location: state of procrastination
3,487 posts, read 6,129,703 times
Reputation: 2883
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokingGun View Post
I jokingly mentioned this Chinese parenting hangup to one of my brainy neurotic PhD co-workers and being Chinese-American, she had a different take on the whole debate. She feels that Chua is actually directing her attack at younger Chinese-Americans now starting to raise families.

As she explained, many of my colleague's generation are highly accomplished in their careers, and by choice or happenstance seem to be marrying outside of their race, which is to be expected. But she feels that Chua is goading them to remember their roots & heritage when rearing their own kids. It's as if Chua is screaming you didn't raise yourself: you owe your success to strict Asian discipline. And don't forget it or your children will end-up dumb, pregnant & strung-out on drugs (like whites, blacks or latinos )
That is a good point. I never thought about it like that but I do think that a lot of asian 2nd generation rule with a limp wrist.

In fact somebody with a video camera was on my campus (heavily asian populated) interviewing people about their views of strict asian parenting. They must be preparing to do some sort of documentary on this subject.

And regarding rock n' roll musicians -- they are cool in my book. But for every 1,000,000 kids that dream about it maybe 1 dream will come true (i.e. DewDropInn's brother). I know a handful of musician wannabes with their local bands and they all suck, I spit on their music... but I guess they are living their dream being losers not quitting their menial day job. On the other hand, for all the kids that got science and math drilled into their heads, probably the majority of them will be guaranteed a nice job in law, medicine, biosci, engineering, or other technology field when their rock and roll dreams fail to materialize. If you have the talent, it is just carved into stone (FATE!) that you are destined for that path regardless of what your parents might be like. The guys from RUSH (best band ever) were very upstanding kids too, no drugs, no groupies, no messing around, quite goal driven. Quite a few other bands come from Ivy League schools. I used to know blink 182 and they were really normal rich kids in suburbia, LOL. One day when I make enough money to be financially stable, all my classical music training will be extremely useful when I start writing music as a hobby. I just know I am not meant for the big time. But thank god my parents put me through all those years of training. Little did they know I'm gonna use all my skills to write devil worshippin music! For now I'll just have fun doing sciencey alien stuff.

Last edited by miyu; 01-13-2011 at 02:19 AM..
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