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Old 01-25-2011, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,698,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucygirl951 View Post
Oh yes, we can't forget the worksheet after worksheet and dumbing down points. Again, I hear them over and over. What you're really saying is "my child is better than these people." It's loud and clear.
Are you a school teacher by chance? Because you seem awfully vested in a system that is failing so many children. Do you have anything to refute the education system has been dumbed down since "no child left behind" took effect?
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:54 AM
 
852 posts, read 1,135,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
That's not what I am saying, what I am saying is that most students don't do well with these worksheets. It is a flawed way of teaching children. We now have approximately 10% of kids on ritalin according to some reports. That is saying that 10% of children have a mental defect because they don't function well in traditional schooling. Maybe it's time to look at traditional schooling and see where its failing all of these kids.

Your last comment is really second guessing. I've never stated that. I've never implied that. In fact, in an earlier post I even said just because my son learns faster than most does NOT make him any better or more deserving than any other person's child. What your posts are saying to me is that you lack imagination. Please don't put words in my mouth and I won't put words in yours.
10% isn't most. In fact, it's very few, and there are many who would argue that it has more to do with permissive parenting than the flaws of the traditional classroom setting. Elementary school teachers do not expect children to sit in chairs and do worksheets all day. That is a misrepresentation of the public school system. It's the equivalent of me saying that all Montessori students do is dance around and sing Kumbaya. It's a gross oversimplification.

Where is your proof that most students don't do well on worksheets? And worksheets are NOT the method of teaching. They are the end of the teaching assessment. Teachers use verbal and visual and often tactile representations to teach concepts, and then on the worksheets, on paper, students are asked to show their understanding of these concepts. At some point, the students do have to take pencil to paper. Traditional or not, teachers need something concrete as evidence of what a student has learned.

Re: the words in your mouth. When you make blanket statements about educational materials being "dumbed down," you are saying that there are children who are dumb and that your "gifted" son is not one of them. Saying those things does make you sound elitist.
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:59 AM
 
852 posts, read 1,135,627 times
Reputation: 1042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
Are you a school teacher by chance? Because you seem awfully vested in a system that is failing so many children. Do you have anything to refute the education system has been dumbed down since "no child left behind" took effect?
I teach at the college level. I'm not certified in K-12. I detest NCLB for many reasons, but public schools are hardly the nightmare scenario you describe.

One thing that I have observed from teaching that the college level for 16 years is that students who attend public and parochial schools are far more prepared for the rigors of academia than those who are home schooled or who attended Montessori.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,698,804 times
Reputation: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucygirl951 View Post
10% isn't most. In fact, it's very few, and there are many who would argue that it has more to do with permissive parenting than the flaws of the traditional classroom setting. Elementary school teachers do not expect children to sit in chairs and do worksheets all day. That is a misrepresentation of the public school system. It's the equivalent of me saying that all Montessori students do is dance around and sing Kumbaya. It's a gross oversimplification.

Where is your proof that most students don't do well on worksheets? And worksheets are NOT the method of teaching. They are the end of the teaching assessment. Teachers use verbal and visual and often tactile representations to teach concepts, and then on the worksheets, on paper, students are asked to show their understanding of these concepts. At some point, the students do have to take pencil to paper. Traditional or not, teachers need something concrete as evidence of what a student has learned.

Re: the words in your mouth. When you make blanket statements about educational materials being "dumbed down," you are saying that there are children who are dumb and that your "gifted" son is not one of them. Saying those things does make you sound elitist.
I am sorry you took it that way. That certainly wasn't what was intended. But when second graders are still doing drills with single digit addition, which is what we had going on at our elementary school, then it has been dumbed down. Maybe you are in a state that has higher standards, I don't know.

While the following isn't evidence I do think it is a thought provoking article

A Brief History of Education | Psychology Today

It also addressed your earlier comment about shifting from hunter gathering to agrarian societies.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,698,804 times
Reputation: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucygirl951 View Post
I teach at the college level. I'm not certified in K-12. I detest NCLB for many reasons, but public schools are hardly the nightmare scenario you describe.

One thing that I have observed from teaching that the college level for 16 years is that students who attend public and parochial schools are far more prepared for the rigors of academia than those who are home schooled or who attended Montessori.
I have not described a "nightmare" scenario. I said schools here have been dumbed down. I wrote the current education system doesn't serve all kids well. It serves many well, but not all. I would even say most kids would do better in a different type of learning environment more consistent with human nature.

You know, if I say school doesn't work for my son, you accuse me a being an elitist and a micromanager, if I say I think in fact most kids would do better in environment where they can learn at there own pace, I'm somehow looking for paradigms that fit my preconceived notions. How come you are so intent on belittling my experiences and all of the authors I've referenced here.

If you want to disagree with me, that's fine, but I don't like personal attacks and that is what this seems to be turning into. You and I have never met. We likely never will. You don't know me, you don't know my kid, but you have me all figured out based on other people you know.

Btw, I have a friend that teaches math at the University of Tennessee - she hasn't made the same connection you have.
Additionally, one study cited in this article that homeschoolers actually do better in college. Can Homeschoolers Do Well in College? - CBS MoneyWatch.com and graduated at a higher rate than other students. I cannot meaningfully comment on Montessori students.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:25 AM
 
2,251 posts, read 4,312,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
Really, it's fine if people don't agree with me on some of these things, but please at least address things I am actually writing.
I am only a bystander reading this thread but I get the feeling from your posts that you think your kid is better than others. It's not what you are directly writing, and perhaps not what you are intending. The implication is between the lines but it's certainly there.

I do not for a second believe that when I was in school in the 70s and 80s that there not just as many kids who finished their homework first, got all A's and were superb students who quietly read a book or worked on something else if they finished their math problems early. I never remember anyone dancing in their seat, crying, whimpering that they were bored or climbing under a desk because they finished their spelling words and were just stressed to the max because they had to sit quietly and wait for others.

At some point these kids will be out in the world where they will have to deal with people of all levels of intelligence and work output. They will have to collaborate with others and allow their teammates to shine as well as themselves. They will have to defer to those teammates who are stronger in some facet of the project. They will have to wait for their teammates to catch up. Their teammates will have to wait for them to catch up. Why should they not begin to manage this this in grade school?
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,698,804 times
Reputation: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleasach View Post
I am only a bystander reading this thread but I get the feeling from your posts that you think your kid is better than others. It's not what you are directly writing, and perhaps not what you are intending. The implication is between the lines but it's certainly there.
How many times have I had to write I don't think he is any better or more deserving or will go on to lead a better life simply because he learns faster than most other kids. It is a single trait, that's it.

"Reading between the lines" has more to do with the readers' own biases and perceptions than the authors.

How many times do I have to write that I think EVERYBODY's kid should be in a learning environment that is consistent with his learning style and his personal nature. How would my believing that lead to someone thinking that I think my kid is better?

Please read the the last article I linked to by Peter Gray.
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,698,804 times
Reputation: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleasach View Post
I am only a bystander reading this thread but I get the feeling from your posts that you think your kid is better than others. It's not what you are directly writing, and perhaps not what you are intending. The implication is between the lines but it's certainly there.

I do not for a second believe that when I was in school in the 70s and 80s that there not just as many kids who finished their homework first, got all A's and were superb students who quietly read a book or worked on something else if they finished their math problems early. I never remember anyone dancing in their seat, crying, whimpering that they were bored or climbing under a desk because they finished their spelling words and were just stressed to the max because they had to sit quietly and wait for others.

At some point these kids will be out in the world where they will have to deal with people of all levels of intelligence and work output. They will have to collaborate with others and allow their teammates to shine as well as themselves. They will have to defer to those teammates who are stronger in some facet of the project. They will have to wait for their teammates to catch up. Their teammates will have to wait for them to catch up. Why should they not begin to manage this this in grade school?
Homeschoolers on to College: What Research Shows Us | Journal of College Admission | Find Articles at BNET
Here's a very well researched article on outcomes for homeschooled kids. This is relevant because home schooled kids usually experience the ultimate in individualized learning and being able to learn at their own pace. Your assumptions of kids being allowed to work at their own pace having difficulty being able to cut in the real world don't stand up to the research. The author of the piece has been a public school and private school teacher so it's not has if he has an agenda to promote homeschooling over a the current standard educational system.

Last edited by Jennibc; 01-25-2011 at 08:37 AM..
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:51 AM
 
852 posts, read 1,135,627 times
Reputation: 1042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
I have not described a "nightmare" scenario. I said schools here have been dumbed down. I wrote the current education system doesn't serve all kids well. It serves many well, but not all. I would even say most kids would do better in a different type of learning environment more consistent with human nature.

You know, if I say school doesn't work for my son, you accuse me a being an elitist and a micromanager, if I say I think in fact most kids would do better in environment where they can learn at there own pace, I'm somehow looking for paradigms that fit my preconceived notions. How come you are so intent on belittling my experiences and all of the authors I've referenced here.

If you want to disagree with me, that's fine, but I don't like personal attacks and that is what this seems to be turning into. You and I have never met. We likely never will. You don't know me, you don't know my kid, but you have me all figured out based on other people you know.

Btw, I have a friend that teaches math at the University of Tennessee - she hasn't made the same connection you have.
Additionally, one study cited in this article that homeschoolers actually do better in college. Can Homeschoolers Do Well in College? - CBS MoneyWatch.com and graduated at a higher rate than other students. I cannot meaningfully comment on Montessori students.
I'm not saying that most children wouldn't perform better in an "environment where there can learn at there [sic] own pace." What I'm saying is that considering that public schools are bringing students from varied ethnic, social, and class backgrounds, and that they have to work around the confines of NCLB, public school teachers are doing a pretty good job of educating most of children. Private schooling that focuses on individual learning styles is NOT an option for most families. It is ONLY an option for those with wealth and privilege. And trust me, once he/she gets to college, no one cares about the student's individual learning styles. The student who tells me that he is a "kinesthetic" learner still has to sit quietly and independently at the computer and compose the essay during the hour and 15 minutes that is allotted for composing it.

No one is personally attacking you. You said that the school was "dumbed down" and that you wouldn't "subject" your son to it. That is elitist language. We're pointing it out. Perhaps you are unaware of your own biases?

As for your education paradigm, the reason I question it is that it is so lockstep. Everyone who subscribes to it says the exact same things in practically the identical language.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,698,804 times
Reputation: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucygirl951 View Post
I'm not saying that most children wouldn't perform better in an "environment where there can learn at there [sic] own pace." What I'm saying is that considering that public schools are bringing students from varied ethnic, social, and class backgrounds, and that they have to work around the confines of NCLB, public school teachers are doing a pretty good job of educating most of children. Private schooling that focuses on individual learning styles is NOT an option for most families. It is ONLY an option for those with wealth and privilege. And trust me, once he/she gets to college, no one cares about the student's individual learning styles. The student who tells me that he is a "kinesthetic" learner still has to sit quietly and independently at the computer and compose the essay during the hour and 15 minutes that is allotted for composing it.

No one is personally attacking you. You said that the school was "dumbed down" and that you wouldn't "subject" your son to it. That is elitist language. We're pointing it out. Perhaps you are unaware of your own biases?

As for your education paradigm, the reason I question it is that it is so lockstep. Everyone who subscribes to it says the exact same things in practically the identical language.
Says who? That sounds kind of lock step.

I started my kid out in the public schools and I'm sorry, in Texas, they have been dumbed down. That's not elitist, that's reality. If you think that second graders are only capable of doing single digit addition, then maybe you don't think it's been dumbed down. I think most second graders are capable of more and should be given the opportunity to do more.

One of my closest homeschooling friends here in hispanic, her husband is a non unionized forklift operator (low paid) and they live in a trailer. They chose to homeschool their sons because they too see the value of an individualized education. She didn't want to subject her son to the public schools either. Is she elitist?

Last edited by Jennibc; 01-25-2011 at 09:24 AM..
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