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Old 01-22-2011, 10:39 PM
 
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And what happens when all of the people who are vaccinating, and over vaccinating, end up creating a new strain of virus or disease because their bodies have adapted to the vaccines they take thus creating something new their body can't fight?? Can those who don't vaccinate or take limited vaccines sue the fully and over vaccinated??

 
Old 01-22-2011, 10:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
then you should have very little to worry about at all, assuming you're all caught up on yours.
And this is why I don't understand the whole vaccinated vs. unvaccinated issue. Why should the vac. people care if others don't want all or any of the vaccines? If they are vaccinated, they shouldn't have anything to worry about
 
Old 01-22-2011, 10:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NEOhioBound View Post
And this is why I don't understand the whole vaccinated vs. unvaccinated issue. Why should the vac. people care if others don't want all or any of the vaccines? If they are vaccinated, they shouldn't have anything to worry about
Vaccines are not 100% effective. They are most effective when a large percentage of the population is vaccinated. That is why we talk about *herd immunity.* If a few members of the community are unable to be immunized, the entire community will be indirectly protected because the disease has little opportunity for an outbreak. However, with a low percentage of population immunity, the disease would have great opportunity for an outbreak.
 
Old 01-22-2011, 10:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
Unvaxed children are not generally walking around harboring various diseases, LOL. And if they ARE exposed to something, their parents are typically aware and cognizant of the need to keep them in quarantine until the incubation period passes.
There are healthy carriers of infectious diseases. As a result, you can't know for sure that your child isn't spreading a disease.

And parents who are chosing to not vaccinate their children could very well be putting their children and the community at risk. The reason is because unvaccinated children tend to live in clusters. They might only represent 3% of the population, but the percentages are higher in certain areas due to the clusters. You live in a cluster---you admit that you have friends who don't vaccinate. Your little group is a custer.

Quote:
Many children with no vaccinations lived in counties in California, Illinois, New York, Washington, Pennsylvania, Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, and Michigan.

States that allowed philosophical exemptions to immunization laws in schools had many more unvaccinated children than states that do not have philosophical exemptions.

Demographics of Unvaccinated Children - Immunization Science

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 01-23-2011 at 07:38 AM.. Reason: Copyright violation -- please post a link and a "snippet" only, per the Terms of Service.
 
Old 01-22-2011, 10:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOhioBound View Post
And this is why I don't understand the whole vaccinated vs. unvaccinated issue. Why should the vac. people care if others don't want all or any of the vaccines?
Because parents who chose to not vaccinate are taking advantage of parents who do. If there is a truly a risk in vaccinating, like anti-vaccination parents believe, they are putting all of the risk onto others. That's pretty selfish because other parents are taking the risk to keep your family safe but you won't do the same for their family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOhioBound View Post
If they are vaccinated, they shouldn't have anything to worry about
As people's immune systems weaken due to age and disease, their vaccinations might stop working. Since they are older and weaker, they are more likely to die from complications of infectious disease. Since children are the greatest spreaders of infectious disease because they are too young to understand fully how to prevent the spread of germs, it is vital to the safety of the community that children be vaccinated.
 
Old 01-23-2011, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taboo2 View Post
Should parents who refuse to vaccinate their children be forced to pay higher health care costs because they are putting their children at unnecessary risk?
I don't know about higher premiums, but I would like to see more data collected citing exact reasons for not immunizing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucygirl951 View Post
I think that what needs to happen is that schools really need to demand that incoming children be fully vaccinated, barring a medical reason for not being (ex: a child recently in remission from leukemia). It's far too easy these days for parents to get excused because they don't believe in vaccination.
I totally agree with you. If you absolutely disagree with immunizations, then make alternativee schooling arrangements. We have an outbreak of pertussis in our school at the moment, so I'm a tad pi**ed at the moment.

Also, there are very few medical situations where children cannot receive immunizations. And not to forget that immunizations do not offer 100% immunity, but greatly reduce the risk of contracting the illness, and reduce the severity of the illness.
 
Old 01-23-2011, 12:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
I don't know about higher premiums, but I would like to see more data collected citing exact reasons for not immunizing.



I totally agree with you. If you absolutely disagree with immunizations, then make alternativee schooling arrangements. We have an outbreak of pertussis in our school at the moment, so I'm a tad pi**ed at the moment.

Also, there are very few medical situations where children cannot receive immunizations. And not to forget that immunizations do not offer 100% immunity, but greatly reduce the risk of contracting the illness, and reduce the severity of the illness.
I've been hearing more and more about pertussis lately. I can certainly understand your concern.

I brought up the leukemia example because a friend's son had it and I understand that the chemotherapy compromises the effectiveness of vaccines given prior but then revaccinating is out of the question until after a certain window. Because there are currently so many unvaccinated children in public schools, my friends decided to hold their son back for a year until after he could be revaccinated. They didn't send him to preschool at all because they couldn't find a school where all of the children were vaccinated, and their son's compromised immunity put him at much greater risk.

So yes, I completely agree with you regarding alternative schooling arrangements for unvaccinated children.
 
Old 01-23-2011, 07:57 AM
 
4,267 posts, read 5,142,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOhioBound View Post
And what happens when all of the people who are vaccinating, and over vaccinating, end up creating a new strain of virus or disease because their bodies have adapted to the vaccines they take thus creating something new their body can't fight?? Can those who don't vaccinate or take limited vaccines sue the fully and over vaccinated??
This is a really good question that should not be overlooked.
CDC - Adaptation of Bordetella pertussis to Vaccination: A Cause for Its Reemergence?
Quote:
In some countries with highly vaccinated populations such as Australia (5), Canada (6), and The Netherlands (7) (Figure 1), pertussis has reemerged. Such a phenomenon may have been caused by changes in the accuracy of notifications, decreases in vaccine coverage, or changes in vaccine quality. These possibilities have been excluded for The Netherlands (7), and we have proposed another possible cause: adaptation of B. pertussis to the vaccine.
 
Old 01-23-2011, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,980 posts, read 98,832,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucygirl951 View Post
I think that what needs to happen is that schools really need to demand that incoming children be fully vaccinated, barring a medical reason for not being (ex: a child recently in remission from leukemia). It's far too easy these days for parents to get excused because they don't believe in vaccination.
Unfortunately, it's not the schools, it's the state legislatures that come up with these criteria for exemptions. Hopes' article is a good one; I have read similar in the American Journal of Public Health. It's kind of a "well, duh" type of thing that states that make it easier have more unimmunized kids, but the research had to be done to prove that before any argument could be made for changing the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
And what if you get sick (even though you have been vaccinated), and you infect someone else? Should you pay their bill as well? How would you even begin to go about proving such a thing?

Unvaxed children are not generally walking around harboring various diseases, LOL. And if they ARE exposed to something, their parents are typically aware and cognizant of the need to keep them in quarantine until the incubation period passes. When we exposed our kids to chicken pox, for example (and ironically, the kid who had it was actually vaccinated for it!), we kept them in from day 10 to day 21 after exposure. (They didn't end up developing pox.) If they were vaccinated, like our young friend was, I would not have given their exposure a second thought, and would have been out and about, potentially infecting the community for 11 days. My non-vaxing friends are similarly cautious... one friend recently thought her kids had whooping cough (it turned out to be something else, not vaccine preventable), and was very careful to keep them in until it was ruled out. In actuality, you are probably very unlikely to catch something from a non-vaxed child... probably less likely than picking it up from a vaccinated child whose vaccine simply didn't work (because their parents would not know to keep them away from others prior to symptoms appearing the the illness being diagnosed). And if your position is that kids need to be vaxed because the vaccines are EFFECTIVE, then you should have very little to worry about at all, assuming you're all caught up on yours.
This has been answered in part, and I would like to add, that in the cases of pertussis, it's often the unimmunized child who is the "index case", in other words, the one who brings the disease to the school/community. When kids are exposed to pertussis, they are "prophylaxed" e.g. given preventive antibiotics whether they have been immunized or not. This does add to health care expense, to have to buy a round of antibiotics for your kid, also to the potential for antibiotic resistance. I just read an article last week in an immunization newsletter I receive. It talked about how a pertussis outbreak in Nebraska cost the health dept there ~$52,000 to investigate 24 cases, ~$2+K per case. That is a huge public health expenditure.

Measles outbreaks are also often started by unimmunized kids.

Local Health Department Costs Associated with Response to a School-Based Pertussis Outbreak --- Omaha, Nebraska, September--November 2008

Summary:
The elevated incidence of pertussis and the burden of
response placed on health departments warrants exploring the
impact of alternative response and chemoprophylaxis
strategies.

The cost for 24 cases of pertussis was
estimated at $52,131 (or approximately $2,172 per case).
Investigations and developing recommendations were the most
resource-intensive aspects of the outbreak.
 
Old 01-23-2011, 08:27 AM
 
43,012 posts, read 89,000,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
This has been answered in part, and I would like to add, that in the cases of pertussis, it's often the unimmunized child who is the "index case", in other words, the one who brings the disease to the school/community.
I found this report stating that an unimmunized child was the cause of the 2000 measle outbreak in California.

Quote:
The outbreak is traced to an unvaccinated 7-year-old child who went on a family trip to Europe.[25][26] The CDC refers to this as an "import-associated outbreak".[25]

The final diagnosis included 11 additional cases of measles in unvaccinated children in San Diego.[25] All of the confirmed patients were not vaccinated because they were younger than 1, the minimum age for measles inoculation, or because their parents declined to have them vaccinated.[27] The typical vaccine would be the MMR vaccine.

Measles outbreaks in the 2000s - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here's the CDC report:

Quote:
The index patient was an unvaccinated boy aged 7 years who had visited Switzerland with his family, returning to the United States on January 13, 2008. He had fever and sore throat on January 21, followed by cough, coryza, and conjunctivitis. On January 24, he attended school. On January 25, the date of his rash onset, he visited the offices of his family physician and his pediatrician.

Outbreak of Measles --- San Diego, California, January--February 2008
I find it odd that the parents who chose to not immunize their children claim that unimmunized children are not the ones who spread disease, especially when it was mostly the unimmunized children who caught the measles from the index case:

Quote:
California allows personal beliefs exemptions (PBEs) to vaccinations required of schoolchildren§; parents can request exemptions if all or some vaccinations are contrary to their beliefs. The index patient and one of his siblings attended a school with 376 children, who ranged in age from 5 to 14 years. Thirty-six (9.6%) of the children had PBEs on file at the school. Among the nine patients aged >12 months, including the index patient, eight were unvaccinated because of PBEs. Among the 36 schoolchildren with PBEs, four had documentation of previous measles vaccination, 11 were vaccinated during the outbreak, and the remaining 21, who did not have evidence of immunity to measles, were placed under voluntary quarantine for 21 days after their last exposure. Overall, approximately 70 children exposed to children with measles in the school, a day care center, the pediatrician's office, and other community settings were placed under voluntary home quarantine because their parents either declined measles vaccination or they were too young to be vaccinated.

Outbreak of Measles --- San Diego, California, January--February 2008
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