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Old 02-01-2011, 12:18 PM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,498,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
I didn't say opposing viewpoints are wrong. I am saying I think, IMO, it's a deeper issue, that goes beyond the individual, and whether or not the individual will buy it for their child. If you don't think so then that's your right. I don't know why people ask a question and then when somebody responds to it they get annoyed that they do so.

I also don't think it's a moral issue. I'm not asking society to legislate morals, I'm asking it to not make our little girls who are really too young to be thrown into this to feel like they have to wear makeup to be "pretty".

I don't think it is a bit of a stretch to think that marketing this stuff to little girls is going to damage their self esteem. After all, cosmetic companies have been damaging the self esteem of grown adult women for years and years. Look at how much money they make. They prey on women's insecurities about how they look. That's the basis of the entire business model. I hate to see it starting so young.

8 year old girls should not be feeling the need to mess with their perfect skin. They are going to have many many years of feeling inadequate about it (and the majority does and will. There are some women who don't give a hoot. But most do, and they're stuck in that trap for life.) I would like to leave our little girls out of it.
What you are doing is making a morality/value judgement for yourself and by the simple fact that you openly state you are "not asking society to legislate morals" but in the same sentence you are "asking it to not make our little girls who are really too young to be thrown into this to feel like they have to wear makeup to be "pretty"." You are essentially saying that yes, you would support banning such products to protect the little girls self image.

The problem is you crossed from a difference of opinion to inplying that your opinion had a moral standard, which it does not.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
What you are doing is making a morality/value judgement for yourself and by the simple fact that you openly state you are "not asking society to legislate morals" but in the same sentence you are "asking it to not make our little girls who are really too young to be thrown into this to feel like they have to wear makeup to be "pretty"." You are essentially saying that yes, you would support banning such products to protect the little girls self image.

The problem is you crossed from a difference of opinion to inplying that your opinion had a moral standard, which it does not.
Hold on there a sec. I did not say anywhere that they should ban the product. I said I think it's a horrible idea. That's not the same thing.

How is making a girl (or girls, as a whole - the individual's experience may vary) feel inadequate without makeup a moral call? I don't believe it is. But it is my opinion that marketing the idea that girls that young are not pretty enough without makeup is a questionable societal action. You don't think it will have a negative effect on them. I do. I think they shouldn't market this stuff to young girls. That's still an opinion. Which I'm entitled to have. I did not say I don't think they should be allowed to. I would hope more people won't just go along with it without questioning whether it will have an adverse effect on how little girls view themselves. Only time will tell.

Nowhere did I say Walmart or their partner in this is immoral. I do think that they are putting profit above the healthy development of our female children. Which companies are allowed to do, but I don't have to agree with it. And hopefully, the more people that don't agree with it and don't buy into this, the less product they'll sell, and it will disappear.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Isn't this just one of the hundreds of clear cut cases of people are simply going to do what is right for their family/children based on their own values? Family X may not think that makeup is appropriate for girls of that age, but Family Y may think it's completely fine. Why then does Family X's values trump those of Family Y's? If Family X feels that their values are threatened then they have done a poor job instilling those values and most likely find that their reasoning is arbitrary.
Probably. And if Family Y feels that their personal choices are being judged, they get defensive or angry or feel as if Family X thinks they are crappy parents or whatever.

Yep, I think it's prolly one of those cases.

In real life I'm sure most of us have a "to each their own" sort of way where we turn the other cheek. I'd never go up to a person in real life and say, "Hey, I think you allowing your 8 year old girl to wear makeup with anti-aging properties in it is a really bad choice". But we can discuss those views here, online.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:47 PM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,498,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Hold on there a sec. I did not say anywhere that they should ban the product. I said I think it's a horrible idea. That's not the same thing.

How is making a girl (or girls, as a whole - the individual's experience may vary) feel inadequate without makeup a moral call? I don't believe it is. But it is my opinion that marketing the idea that girls that young are not pretty enough without makeup is a questionable societal action. You don't think it will have a negative effect on them. I do. I think they shouldn't market this stuff to young girls. That's still an opinion. Which I'm entitled to have. I did not say I don't think they should be allowed to. I would hope more people won't just go along with it without questioning whether it will have an adverse effect on how little girls view themselves. Only time will tell.

Nowhere did I say Walmart or their partner in this is immoral. I do think that they are putting profit above the healthy development of our female children. Which companies are allowed to do, but I don't have to agree with it. And hopefully, the more people that don't agree with it and don't buy into this, the less product they'll sell, and it will disappear.
Fair enough. I apparently misunderstood your comments. My statements were more or less directed towards people making their opinions into morals/values and foisting them upon others. If it doesn't apply here, than it doesn't apply. Although I do think there is a thread of morality/values running in your statements. However, there isn't any point in continuing that line of debate.

On the actual topic, I have mixed feelings. My 2 year old loves to play with mommies makeup, even though mommy doesn't wear much makeup. Now, it is all cute and innocent, but I don't know how I would feel in say 6 years when she wants to wear it all the time. I tend to think it is a bit of a non-issue as if I have done my job right, than she won't think of makeup as necessary to make herself pretty, but simply an expression.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:51 PM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,723,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Fair enough. I apparently misunderstood your comments. My statements were more or less directed towards people making their opinions into morals/values and foisting them upon others. If it doesn't apply here, than it doesn't apply. Although I do think there is a thread of morality/values running in your statements. However, there isn't any point in continuing that line of debate.

On the actual topic, I have mixed feelings. My 2 year old loves to play with mommies makeup, even though mommy doesn't wear much makeup. Now, it is all cute and innocent, but I don't know how I would feel in say 6 years when she wants to wear it all the time. I tend to think it is a bit of a non-issue as if I have done my job right, than she won't think of makeup as necessary to make herself pretty, but simply an expression.
Thanks for seeing it from my perspective. I may have done a poor job of explaining my position. I'm not really a values/morals pushing kind of person, if that makes sense. I am concerned, however, about how girls view themselves in our society and that we do what we can to help them remain confident and self assured in their own skin. That's all.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:51 PM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,325,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Thanks for seeing it from my perspective. I may have done a poor job of explaining my position. I'm not really a values/morals pushing kind of person, if that makes sense. I am concerned, however, about how girls view themselves in our society and that we do what we can to help them remain confident and self assured in their own skin. That's all.
Finster, "They" don't want you, me, or the 8-year olds down the street to be "confident and self assured in their own skin". There's no money in "confidence". They want us all looking in the mirror worried about our skin and our hair and our teeth. They'll tell us we're bad parents so they can sell more books. (Or the wrong type of Ethnicity for being a parent and sell us a LOT of books. )

They'll sell us diet drinks and weight shakes and muscle builders and vitamins. And skinny jeans and stretch jeans. Bras for big girls. Breast implants. They'll tell us minivans aren't cool. Unless it's their minivan. They'll push pink for girls and blue for boys and tell us girls have to play with Princess dolls and boys have to play with superhero action figures.

It's up to us as Moms and Dads and Aunts and Uncles to see through all their garbage and do what we think is best for our own kids.

I'm on your side. Makeup for 8-year olds is dumb. Fight back by using your wallets, America, to say "no". She's beautiful just the way she is.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:57 PM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,498,385 times
Reputation: 14278
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Finster, "They" don't want you, me, or the 8-year olds down the street to be "confident and self assured in their own skin". There's no money in "confidence". They want us all looking in the mirror worried about our skin and our hair and our teeth. They'll tell us we're bad parents so they can sell more books. (Or the wrong type of Ethnicity for being a parent and sell us a LOT of books. )

They'll sell us diet drinks and weight shakes and muscle builders and vitamins. And skinny jeans and stretch jeans. Bras for big girls. Breast implants. They'll tell us minivans aren't cool. Unless it's their minivan. They'll push pink for girls and blue for boys and tell us girls have to play with Princess dolls and boys have to play with superhero action figures.

It's up to us as Moms and Dads and Aunts and Uncles to see through all their garbage and do what we think is best for our own kids.

I'm on your side. Makeup for 8-year olds is dumb. Fight back by using your wallets, America, to say "no". She's beautiful just the way she is.
This is what I meant to say, but got all sidetracked trying to sound smart.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:00 PM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,325,866 times
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
This is what I meant to say, but got all sidetracked trying to sound smart.
I'm not especially smart but I have the common sense God gave me and I'm still grumpy, itchy and in pain from the sting some ruthless scorpion inflicted on me and I'm taking it out on Corporate America.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:13 PM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,723,723 times
Reputation: 11008
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Finster, "They" don't want you, me, or the 8-year olds down the street to be "confident and self assured in their own skin". There's no money in "confidence". They want us all looking in the mirror worried about our skin and our hair and our teeth. They'll tell us we're bad parents so they can sell more books. (Or the wrong type of Ethnicity for being a parent and sell us a LOT of books. )

They'll sell us diet drinks and weight shakes and muscle builders and vitamins. And skinny jeans and stretch jeans. Bras for big girls. Breast implants. They'll tell us minivans aren't cool. Unless it's their minivan. They'll push pink for girls and blue for boys and tell us girls have to play with Princess dolls and boys have to play with superhero action figures.

It's up to us as Moms and Dads and Aunts and Uncles to see through all their garbage and do what we think is best for our own kids.

I'm on your side. Makeup for 8-year olds is dumb. Fight back by using your wallets, America, to say "no". She's beautiful just the way she is.
Yay. What a relief. Will you be my speechwriter?
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:48 PM
 
3,084 posts, read 6,464,939 times
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Maybe one of the bigger problems is self image.

As a woman I have never thought I needed makeup to be pretty or prettier. Both of my older girls were not allowed to wear makeup outside the house until they were in high school. We all wear some, but it certainly does not define us nor are we ashamed to be seen without it.

My 13 yr old has never worn makeup either, which is why I bought her the set to begin playing around with and get an idea of how to use/wear it.

The idea of another company marketing makeup to tweens just isn't an issue in my house. I still see it no different than all the other stuff that is out there already and I have no problem passing it by whenever it comes out.

It's sad that it is being judged and slammed when it's not even on the market yet and that so many people are taking media hype as pure fact. Even if it comes out and lives up to the negative hype, it still doesn't mean it will affect the self image of girls who have been given a solid foundation in that respect.

Most I know don't feel like they cannot be seen without makeup nor that they aren't pretty without it. Makeup is simply one more part to getting dressed up. We just don't make it that big of a deal in our house, so it won't be that big of a deal in the store sitting alongside the rest of it.
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