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Old 03-02-2011, 01:22 PM
 
Location: In a house
13,258 posts, read 34,677,768 times
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The LaLeche CEO, the President of PETA, and a bottle-fed baby seal hunter with a moose-bone club walk into a bar.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Denver area
21,148 posts, read 22,139,461 times
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I think it all boils down to what Zimbo was trying to say at the get-go...why do we allow any group to undermine our support for each other and our choices? As women, sisters, wives, mothers we need to support each other - make knowledge available but no need to pound down those whose choices are different.

ADventive - I respect your choices - even if I don't agree with them. But - it's kind of like religion - those who fervently prosthletize do so truly believing that they are saving you - that your eternal life is at stake and that you are simply too ignorant of the fact to make the proper decision. Do you appreciate that? I'm guessing not.

ETA - no offense intended to religion itself - just comparing the attitudes of those who fervently and passionately prosthletize to those who have made different choices.

Last edited by maciesmom; 03-02-2011 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Chicago's burbs
1,013 posts, read 4,065,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
But - it's kind of like religion - those who fervently prosthletize do so truly believing that they are saving you - that your eternal life is at stake and that you are simply too ignorant of the fact to make the proper decision. Do you appreciate that? I'm guessing not
This is a great comparison, many of the extreme lactivists DO act like women who don't breastfeed need to be "saved". I wish I could rep you!
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:45 PM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,732,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
I think it all boils down to what Zimbo was trying to say at the get-go...why do we allow any group to undermine our support for each other and our choices? As women, sisters, wives, mothers we need to support each other - make knowledge available but no need to pound down those whose choices are different.

ADventive - I respect your choices - even if I don't agree with them. But - it's kind of like religion - those who fervently prosthletize do so truly believing that they are saving you - that your eternal life is at stake and that you are simply too ignorant of the fact to make the proper decision. Do you appreciate that? I'm guessing not.
Exactly. Well said maciesmom. And it all comes down to context. While I understand that ADVentive disagreed with the premise of the thread, I think she inadvertently proved it's point.

The downside is - that it ends up making people who agree with you on a fundamental level disagree with you because of the way you go about it.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 5,959,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
ADVentive, I'm not going to respond to your posts point by point, but I do have a question for you. You say breastfeeding is your passion. I am curious why?
That's an interesting question. I first decided that I would breastfeed when I was in college and I took my first immunology class. I was really interested in immunology in general as a fascinating field, and it is what I later went on to study in graduate school. But in that first class as an undergrad, I first learned about how the immunities transferred in breast milk, and I was really struck by how important that was. I knew that I would breastfeed then. My continuing studies in immunology really reinforced that too.

When I became a parent, I did breastfeed, but in the beginning it was basically because of nutritional an immunological reasons, probably the reasons that a lot of people start out breastfeeding. It was for the milk, the food. As my daughter got older though, breastfeeding became about more than just the milk for me, it became a way of life, a way of parenting, integral to my relationship with her. If I couldn't breastfeed a future child for some reason, I feel like I don't even know how I would parent. I wouldn't feel guilt - I would feel anguish, devastation. It's not that bottle-feeding parents can't bond with their babies, but my whole way of life would be different, and I would worry that our bond would not be like that I have with my two breastfed kids. Some see breastfeeding as just another way to transfer milk into a baby, a feeding method - I don't anymore. It is part of my lifestyle now.

When my daughter was 5 weeks old, I was told by a store manager that I couldn't breastfeed her in his store. That set off an anger in me that led me to research my rights, and it led me to a community of other mothers who breastfed too. In that community, I heard stories over and over from women who were told that they couldn't breastfeed, not only in public, but because of medications they were taking or because they were going back to work or because their baby was low on the growth charts, etc etc. And over time, I saw that so many of these mothers were really being misled. There are rights to breastfeed in public. You don't have to choose between breastfeeding and working. There are meds for almost every condition that you can find a way to breastfeed with. Babies come in all shapes and sizes, they are not all 50 percentile. I heard so many stories of moms being sabotaged in their efforts to breastfeed. And still, I hear more stories. Women are told that birth interventions don't affect breastfeeding rates, that they should send baby to the nursery to get some sleep, that there is no such thing as nipple confusion, that formula is necessary to fix jaundice, that colostrum isn't enough in baby's first days. Women are told that they shouldn't let their baby suck for comfort or they should only nurse every 3 hours or that they should always stick to 15 minutes per side. They are being told that their milk has no value after X months, that they can't nurse while they are pregnant, that they shouldn't nurse a toddler. And, they are told that it doesn't really matter, that formula is just as good.

Because of the health implications of breast milk feeding, but also because of the value that I place in my own nursing relationships with my kids, I feel so frustrated that so many mothers' nursing relationships are being subverted in this way. It makes me want to dispel the misconceptions and help other women to breastfeed. It has led me to become a breastfeeding advocate.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 5,959,678 times
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Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
See....this is the second time you've included smoking as an equivilant choice as not breastfeeding. Smoking is detrimental. Not breastfeeding is less than optimal. Not the same thing by any stretch. And it's not just semantics.
I'm not saying that not breastfeeding is as unhealthy as smoking. But I think that it is semantics for you to say "less than optimal" is different from "detrimental". It's all in your frame of reference. If breastfeeding is the norm, then formula is subpar.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 5,959,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
ADventive - I respect your choices - even if I don't agree with them. But - it's kind of like religion - those who fervently prosthletize do so truly believing that they are saving you - that your eternal life is at stake and that you are simply too ignorant of the fact to make the proper decision. Do you appreciate that? I'm guessing not.
Actually, I appreciate that analogy a great deal and will certainly think on it. Religiously speaking and coming from the perspective of a religious minority, I actually have a lot of animosity for missionary philosophy.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Denver area
21,148 posts, read 22,139,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
I'm not saying that not breastfeeding is as unhealthy as smoking. But I think that it is semantics for you to say "less than optimal" is different from "detrimental". It's all in your frame of reference. If breastfeeding is the norm, then formula is subpar.
Which is not the same thing as actively harmful. The whole point of the article in the OP was that there are many many decisions in life that we as parents and as humans make. Not everything we do at every moment will be optimal. And life goes on. It really and truly does. I may have used sunscreen that wasn't the "optimal" SPF for a situation; I may have allowed Lucky Charms to cross the threshold of my home; I may have not gotten 8 hours of sleep every night and avoided all stress while pregnant. Raising a healthy child and living a healthy life is a combination of a multitude of things. If we occasionally make "not the optimum" choice, it doesn't condemn the whole shebang. Believing and preaching that it does, creates stress - which...is not optimum either
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:23 PM
 
424 posts, read 636,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post

When I became a parent, I did breastfeed, but in the beginning it was basically because of nutritional an immunological reasons, probably the reasons that a lot of people start out breastfeeding. It was for the milk, the food. As my daughter got older though, breastfeeding became about more than just the milk for me, it became a way of life, a way of parenting, integral to my relationship with her. If I couldn't breastfeed a future child for some reason, I feel like I don't even know how I would parent. I wouldn't feel guilt - I would feel anguish, devastation. It's not that bottle-feeding parents can't bond with their babies, but my whole way of life would be different, and I would worry that our bond would not be like that I have with my two breastfed kids. Some see breastfeeding as just another way to transfer milk into a baby, a feeding method - I don't anymore. It is part of my lifestyle now.
And I think this is part of the issue. I think this is WONDERFUL for you. I really do. And I think a lot of activists feel the same way you do. But there are a whole slew of women who do breastfeed, but don't feel any of this. I know many, many women who really don't love breastfeeding but do it because it's cheap and easy for them. And they acknowledge that's why they do it. They also tend to be way less judgy than others, I think. To them, it's just a way to feed their kid. I have an online friend who is BF-ing her third child. She's not in love with it by far, but she can do it so she does. She acknowledges that being a SAHM has been helpful in that. Even if you do inspire others to breastfeed, it doesn't mean everyone will have this amazing transformation.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:23 PM
 
Location: In a house
13,258 posts, read 34,677,768 times
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Breastfeeding isn't the norm. Most adults in the USA were not breastfed. Formula is also not subpar. Formula is nutritionally sound. Compared with, say, vodka, or skim milk, or soured breastmilk, or breastmilk from a crack addict, or partially hydrogenated soy protein, you could say that formula is actually the BEST of all options.

But rather than go the hyperbole strawman red herring route, the more accurate of all statements would be: formula is nutritionally sound, and an acceptable choice for most babies. It is not THE ONLY acceptable choice, but it IS acceptable. There is nothing in formula, if manufactured and prepared properly, that can cause harm to a normal, healthy child.

Just like some kids are allergic to their own mother's milk, and just like some mothers have milk that sours, and just like some mothers are unable to produce the necessary nutrients to nourish their own child, there are exceptions with formula. But those exceptions are exceptions. Other than those exceptions, formula IS an acceptable choice for nourishing a child. To claim otherwise, or to IMPLY otherwise, is nasty, vindictive, incorrect, inaccurate, insulting, and a discredit to every child on this planet that was NOT breastfed, and a discredit to every woman on this planet who did not breastfeed their child.
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