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Old 03-03-2011, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Chicago's burbs
1,013 posts, read 4,064,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
I don't expect you to understand being that you haven't had the same experience with it as I have. I realize that you and others may think it is silly or pathetic or whatever that I have attached such meaning to it. But I was asked why I am passionate about the topic, and I am trying to explain what it has meant in my life and with my children. Of course there are worse things that could happen to me than to not be able to breastfeed a future child. There are always worse things that could happen it seems. Being on the edge of the "special needs" parenting community for the past few months has certainly shown me that it can always be harder than what I'm going through. But I can tell you, whether you think it's silly or stupid or pathetic or what, that it really would be devastating to me. Just as it was to the mothers who I mentioned before (the one who had to be treated for cancer and the one whose baby was born with a cleft palate) - when they lost their breastfeeding relationship with their children, it was another heavy blow, in addition to the already difficult medical situations they were in. This is not something that I expect for anyone to understand who hasn't nursed a child, or who hasn't nursed for more than just the food.
I have a question. You've said that you wouldn't even know how to parent a child without breastfeeding. Every child will be done breastfeeding at some point, even if you practice extended breastfeeding. Even if you breastfeed for 4 years, that is still a relatively small portion of the child's life in the grand scheme of things. How do you make the transition to weaning when you have placed such heavy importance on breastfeeding as the base of your relationship with your child. When breastfeeding is everything, what is left when the breastfeeding goes away? You yourself said that you wouldn't know how to parent without it? Just curious.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:59 AM
 
3,842 posts, read 9,246,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbd78 View Post
I have a question. You've said that you wouldn't even know how to parent a child without breastfeeding. Every child will be done breastfeeding at some point, even if you practice extended breastfeeding. Even if you breastfeed for 4 years, that is still a relatively small portion of the child's life in the grand scheme of things. How do you make the transition to weaning when you have placed such heavy importance on breastfeeding as the base of your relationship with your child. When breastfeeding is everything, what is left when the breastfeeding goes away? You yourself said that you wouldn't know how to parent without it? Just curious.
I can't understand someone honestly feeling emotional grief to the extent that it would effect their parenting over breastfeeding. I don't get it.

What about adoptive parents? This would imply that they cannot bond w/ their child. Single dads? I know a dad who is raising twins after the mom had a heart attack after delivery & is in a permanent coma. Since he can't breastfeed & mom can't....it implies he will never have a bond.

Yep, there are really really awful things that can go on other than not being able to breastfeed. One of my dearest friends had a stillbirth at 36 wks this past spring. Sorry, I find her story a heck of a lot worse than not being able to breastfeed.

I find not being able to provide a child shelter or food to be awful. I find not being able to provide a healthy home environment awful. I find kids who drink at 6 or try pot at 8 to be awful.

Not breastfeeding? Sorry, it doesn't even meet any criteria. If anything, it would be borderline ridiculous.

And I have breastfeed all 3 of my children. They get sick. They have temper tantrums. They whine. They get upset. I have rough days as a mommy. They are not counting backwards or speaking 14 languages.

My bond w/ my children is special b/c I work at making it special. My bond / my boys requires constant work, in the good days & bad days. A bond w/a child requires growth, change & understanding, not something coming from my boob. If anything, I would think those who feel the bond from breastfeeding only is b/c it is something that is a bond for THEM, not necessarily the child. It means the child is still needy, still a baby, and that is the ONE thing they can control & constantly appease the baby & themselves. IMO, not healthy. At all.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:01 AM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,730,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucyhoneychurch View Post
I know the benefits of breastmilk--however, I also know those first 5-6 weeks with son 1 were filled with (needless) anxiety and pain on both our parts. He would not have been so miserable those first few weeks if I had just started with a bottle. I would not have felt so anxious and guilty and horrible if just one "expert" in those first days had said "It's okay to use the bottle, and even formula, because you and your baby need to be healthy, satiated, and calm now." I should have followed my gut, which was to feed him (motor oil or beef soup if need be) and not be so concerned where it was coming from.
I think this is why people get so insulted by the "they didn't try hard enough" rhetoric.

I would say many mothers who were all set to breastfeed and then end up in this situation have the same experience. I know I did. This is where the hard-line breastfeeding crowd do more harm than good.

It is not helpful to be told to keep trying when the baby hasn't gotten the memo. It is not helpful to take an anxiety ridden first time mom and keep pounding in how much better breastfeeding is if it's not going to happen. It is not helpful to be told to exclusively pump when your supply is not enough.

It is not helpful to make a mother who needs to feed her baby feel like she is opening a can of crack when she opens that first can of formula.

What would be helpful is something along these lines - "we know you understand the benefits of breastfeeding so there is no need to harp on about it ad infinitum. We know you have the best interest of your child at heart and if you have to formula feed then formulas these days are wonderful and your child is not likely to catch the plague, be obese or have the IQ of a pineapple if you go ahead and feed them, however you need to."

That would be helpful.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:12 AM
 
1,302 posts, read 1,530,649 times
Reputation: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by 121804 View Post
I can't understand someone honestly feeling emotional grief to the extent that it would effect their parenting over breastfeeding. I don't get it.

What about adoptive parents? This would imply that they cannot bond w/ their child. Single dads? I know a dad who is raising twins after the mom had a heart attack after delivery & is in a permanent coma. Since he can't breastfeed & mom can't....it implies he will never have a bond.

Yep, there are really really awful things that can go on other than not being able to breastfeed. One of my dearest friends had a stillbirth at 36 wks this past spring. Sorry, I find her story a heck of a lot worse than not being able to breastfeed.

I find not being able to provide a child shelter or food to be awful. I find not being able to provide a healthy home environment awful. I find kids who drink at 6 or try pot at 8 to be awful.

Not breastfeeding? Sorry, it doesn't even meet any criteria. If anything, it would be borderline ridiculous.

And I have breastfeed all 3 of my children. They get sick. They have temper tantrums. They whine. They get upset. I have rough days as a mommy. They are not counting backwards or speaking 14 languages.

My bond w/ my children is special b/c I work at making it special. My bond / my boys requires constant work, in the good days & bad days. A bond w/a child requires growth, change & understanding, not something coming from my boob. If anything, I would think those who feel the bond from breastfeeding only is b/c it is something that is a bond for THEM, not necessarily the child. It means the child is still needy, still a baby, and that is the ONE thing they can control & constantly appease the baby & themselves. IMO, not healthy. At all.

It actually reinforces my belief that the LLL spouts for the most part, nonsense. This "ever exquisite bond" is perpetuated by irrationality and insecurity. I just never knew how much until I read Adventives post.

Whether or not you breast or bottle feed is such a tiny, tiny blip on the parent/child relationship it is hilarious that there is so much focus on it. There are so many millions of other things to worry and fret over that it boggles my mind that such an emphasis is placed on it.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,800,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeavingMassachusetts View Post
It actually reinforces my belief that the LLL spouts for the most part, nonsense.
I wouldn't go that far. LLL does amazing work, and they offer services that would not otherwise be available. Their philosophy is a good one. I think one of the problems is they have allowed the zealots to take over a little bit. Just because people are talking about breastfeeding doesn't give them free-reign to label non-breastfeeding mothers as inferior or uncaring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeavingMassachusetts View Post
This "ever exquisite bond" is perpetuated by irrationality and insecurity. I just never knew how much until I read Adventives post.

Whether or not you breast or bottle feed is such a tiny, tiny blip on the parent/child relationship it is hilarious that there is so much focus on it. There are so many millions of other things to worry and fret over that it boggles my mind that such an emphasis is placed on it.
Yup! Bonding is the important part, not how you do it.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:37 AM
 
1,302 posts, read 1,530,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
I wouldn't go that far. LLL does amazing work, and they offer services that would not otherwise be available. Their philosophy is a good one. I think one of the problems is they have allowed the zealots to take over a little bit. Just because people are talking about breastfeeding doesn't give them free-reign to label non-breastfeeding mothers as inferior or uncaring.



Yup! Bonding is the important part, not how you do it.
I would agree that the principles they were founded on and their original intentions were good, but the zealots have taken over. As with any organization, the loudest mouths become the face of you and this was a very bad thing for LLL.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 5,957,822 times
Reputation: 2620
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeavingMassachusetts View Post
So because of your own insecurities in your parenting you think your way is the correct way? It truly does sadden me that you think the true bond between a parent and child is through breastfeeding. Please don't look down on the rest of the world just because you can't parent any other way than some completely regimented and pre-planned lifestyle brought upon by irrational fear.
I have already said that I don't expect that everyone would or should have the same kind of experience with breastfeeding as I have. My experience is what led me to be passionate about the topic - that was the question I was answering. I never said that everyone else should have the same experience as I have had. And I don't know why you have chosen to use the words "regimented", "pre-planned", or "fear", which I don't feel describe my lifestyle at all. Again, I did not say that breastfeeding is the only path to bonding, but it has been an important one in my family. This thread is not about bonding though. I have stated that I think that breast milk feeding is a health decision, while nursing (such as I have) is a lifestyle issue.

The OP's article basically stated that there is not really a difference between formula- and breast-feeding (or if there is any, it is minimal and unimportant) and therefore it doesn't matter which we choose and therefore we should stop pushing breastfeeding so hard because it makes others feel bad. I disagree with the premise - I think that there is a substantial difference between formula and breast milk in terms of health, and I don't believe that we should downplay it just because someone might feel bad to hear it. Several on this thread have stated that they themselves don't believe there is a substantial difference between formula and breast milk, or if there is any difference at all it is so minor as to not be important. Others have seemed to say that they do think there is a difference, but they don't think we should talk about it any more because people already know and if we keep saying it people just feel bad. I think that the result of saying that breastfeeding and formula feeding are equivalent (or of just not saying out loud that they are different), is that women will be more likely to choose not to breastfeed or to give up on breastfeeding if it isn't easy, and they will do that because they have been led to believe that it doesn't matter, so why bother? I think that this is unfair to women because it gives them false information on which to base their decisions, and I think it is detrimental to public health because fewer will breastfeed. It is not the only public health issue out there, but I do believe it to be an important one, and it is the one that has had special meaning to me.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:46 AM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,367,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeavingMassachusetts View Post
It actually reinforces my belief that the LLL spouts for the most part, nonsense. This "ever exquisite bond" is perpetuated by irrationality and insecurity. I just never knew how much until I read Adventives post.

Whether or not you breast or bottle feed is such a tiny, tiny blip on the parent/child relationship it is hilarious that there is so much focus on it. There are so many millions of other things to worry and fret over that it boggles my mind that such an emphasis is placed on it.
LLL may have been very aggressive in the past but they have learned from their mistakes. I have attended LLL meetings and every kind of person was welcomed in those meetings as long as they were there for breastfeeding support.

I wanted to touch upon the insecurity. Often times it is used in a negative way, as an insult. In the sentence above it is paired with the word irrationality.

When you break down the word "insecurity" you have the root word "secure". Looking back at the choices I made in regards to my baby, I made them because I felt like it was the only thing I had control over in my life. Nobody could tell me what to do and many tried to influence my choices aggressively often telling me things like,

I am starving my baby that is why she has to eat so frequently.
I need to wean my baby as soon as possible.
My milk was too watery.
Etc.

LLL was there to support me even though I did not have any support from friends and family. In other words, they were the support I never had but that was my fault.

I suspect many women who start off breastfeeding and feel empowered by LLL also rely heavily on breastfeeding as a parenting tool. It is a soothing tool that nobody else can do, only the mother. The mother feels in control.

Hopefully, by taking this step to go against the grain, which is what attracts many women to LLL, they start to find their own voice. If they don't and they are just repeating what LLL says and just go along with what they say, they will soon find themselves in trouble when baby becomes toddler and the breast no longer fixes all of the problems. They have not dug down deep enough to the root of their problems: not feeling secure.
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:02 AM
 
1,302 posts, read 1,530,649 times
Reputation: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
I have already said that I don't expect that everyone would or should have the same kind of experience with breastfeeding as I have. My experience is what led me to be passionate about the topic - that was the question I was answering. I never said that everyone else should have the same experience as I have had. And I don't know why you have chosen to use the words "regimented", "pre-planned", or "fear", which I don't feel describe my lifestyle at all. Again, I did not say that breastfeeding is the only path to bonding, but it has been an important one in my family. This thread is not about bonding though. I have stated that I think that breast milk feeding is a health decision, while nursing (such as I have) is a lifestyle issue.

The OP's article basically stated that there is not really a difference between formula- and breast-feeding (or if there is any, it is minimal and unimportant) and therefore it doesn't matter which we choose and therefore we should stop pushing breastfeeding so hard because it makes others feel bad. I disagree with the premise - I think that there is a substantial difference between formula and breast milk in terms of health, and I don't believe that we should downplay it just because someone might feel bad to hear it. Several on this thread have stated that they themselves don't believe there is a substantial difference between formula and breast milk, or if there is any difference at all it is so minor as to not be important. Others have seemed to say that they do think there is a difference, but they don't think we should talk about it any more because people already know and if we keep saying it people just feel bad. I think that the result of saying that breastfeeding and formula feeding are equivalent (or of just not saying out loud that they are different), is that women will be more likely to choose not to breastfeed or to give up on breastfeeding if it isn't easy, and they will do that because they have been led to believe that it doesn't matter, so why bother? I think that this is unfair to women because it gives them false information on which to base their decisions, and I think it is detrimental to public health because fewer will breastfeed. It is not the only public health issue out there, but I do believe it to be an important one, and it is the one that has had special meaning to me.
I understand that your intial response was that you think people are misinformed and that breast milk does have a much more substantial health benefit than formula. I am one of the ones who does believe that the difference is minimal. I have never been one who doesn't draw mostly from life experience versus a spreadsheet...my life experience proves this to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. I will never be convinced differently.

Your subsequent response about the bonding part was what caused me to use the words "pre-planned" "irrational" and "fear" and those words were just drawn from yours.
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:27 AM
 
Location: USA
1,895 posts, read 4,042,236 times
Reputation: 1988
This "war" will never die down because it's just one of many ways women try to compete with each other. Meow.
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