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Old 03-03-2011, 11:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
The OP's article basically stated that there is not really a difference between formula- and breast-feeding (or if there is any, it is minimal and unimportant) and therefore it doesn't matter which we choose and therefore we should stop pushing breastfeeding so hard because it makes others feel bad. I disagree with the premise - I think that there is a substantial difference between formula and breast milk in terms of health, and I don't believe that we should downplay it just because someone might feel bad to hear it.
Firstly, nobody's saying to stop "pushing" breastfeeding. There's nothing wrong with that. But know your audience. What is the point of "pushing" breastfeeding to a bunch of women who have already had their babies and have made it work one way or another? What are you trying to achieve by doing that but to make mothers that didn't breastfeed feel inadequate?

That was the point of the article - not that breastfeeding and formula is the same, but that once the decision has been made you need to respect the other person's path whether you agree with it or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
Several on this thread have stated that they themselves don't believe there is a substantial difference between formula and breast milk, or if there is any difference at all it is so minor as to not be important. Others have seemed to say that they do think there is a difference, but they don't think we should talk about it any more because people already know and if we keep saying it people just feel bad. I think that the result of saying that breastfeeding and formula feeding are equivalent (or of just not saying out loud that they are different), is that women will be more likely to choose not to breastfeed or to give up on breastfeeding if it isn't easy, and they will do that because they have been led to believe that it doesn't matter, so why bother? I think that this is unfair to women because it gives them false information on which to base their decisions, and I think it is detrimental to public health because fewer will breastfeed. It is not the only public health issue out there, but I do believe it to be an important one, and it is the one that has had special meaning to me.
According to the CDC, 3 out of 4 women start off breastfeeding. So what makes you think new mothers are not getting the message? The OP's article is only ONE article. The vast majority of the info out there is that breastfeeding is best. To say that this one article is going to influence women to the point that fewer will breastfeed based on that alone is to severely undermine the intelligence of mothers to be and to insinuate that without your input the rest of us morons would be not capable of making an informed decision.

The reasons mothers give up on breastfeeding are many and complicated. It's a good thing to have a support network. But to suggest that we are unaware of the benefits by now is just insulting.

And the people on here that say it doesn't matter, don't mean it in the way you think. They are saying that there is not as big a difference in the outcome as one would be led to believe. Based on their experience with their own children, they are saying that they have not suffered great hardships as a result of their babies being formula fed - health wise, bonding wise, whatever wise. This is something you probably don't like to hear, just as I prefer not to be constantly told my baby is going to be a sub par human being because she was not exclusively breastfed. I would be curious to put two preschoolers together and see if you could pick the breastfed one vs the bottle fed one.

And I'm wondering if, by the time our children are 13 and going through a rebellious stage, whether any of this is going to matter at all.
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:41 AM
 
Location: BK All Day
4,480 posts, read 8,327,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
I would be curious to put two preschoolers together and see if you could pick the breastfed one vs the bottle fed one.
See Below:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ohiogirl22 View Post
So, if it matters SO much. When you walk down the street, can you automatically pick out the people who where breast fed vs formula. After all it effects their life so much as you are saying...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
Of course not. Statistics work on populations, not individuals.
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 5,959,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbd78 View Post
I have a question. You've said that you wouldn't even know how to parent a child without breastfeeding. Every child will be done breastfeeding at some point, even if you practice extended breastfeeding. Even if you breastfeed for 4 years, that is still a relatively small portion of the child's life in the grand scheme of things. How do you make the transition to weaning when you have placed such heavy importance on breastfeeding as the base of your relationship with your child. When breastfeeding is everything, what is left when the breastfeeding goes away? You yourself said that you wouldn't know how to parent without it? Just curious.
When I say that I don't know how I would parent without breastfeeding, I am referring to parenting an infant and toddler, when breastfeeding is a very frequent occurrance throughout the day. Breastfeeding affects so many aspects of my parenting in this stage besides just feeding, from sleeping to illness to separation to injury to convenience to entertainment, etc. I breastfeed pretty much on-demand until age 2 or so - sometimes baby is hungry, but other times just thirsty, or just wanting comfort and closeness. Breastfeeding allows baby to nurse as long as she wants to get what she is needing. When baby fusses, the first thing that I try is nursing. If I need to talk or listen to an adult, I may nurse the baby to be assured of quiet. When baby is sick, the only thing she wants to do is nurse, so I let her nurse constantly. I know that I can always keep her hydrated and fed even when she refuses to eat or drink because she feels sick. I encourage my babies to comfort nurse, and nursing fixes boo boos and upsets quickly. Breastfeeding has been a nice way for me and my baby to reconnect at the end of the work day after being separated, and yes, I think that it contributed to facilitating our bond despite being separated for work. I have also visited both of my children on my lunch break to nurse them. Having to pump while we are separated keeps my mind on my kids even when we are apart. Breastfeeding has given me an excuse not to leave my kids for long periods of time, when others have pressured me to do so. If I want baby to sleep, nurse the baby. At night, I co-sleep and let the baby nurse at will, and as a result we both sleep all night and get plenty of rest. I don't believe in sleep training, so if I wasn't breastfeeding, I don't know how I'd sleep! And I also think that night-nursing and co-sleeping have contributed to our bond despite being separated for work. Breastfeeding helped my daughter finally understand communication because it was the thing that most motivated her. That's the kind of thing that I'm talking about when I say that breastfeeding is a way of parenting or a lifestyle for me. At LLL, we call it "mothering through breastfeeding". Obviously, other parents accomplish these things in other ways besides breastfeeding, and I would too if I had to. But breastfeeding is my go-to multi-tool in my tool kit, and I would find it difficult to parent without it during the baby and toddler stage. Particularly in terms of on-demand feeding and comfort sucking, sleeping, and separations.

My oldest child is 4 years old and just weaned (maybe, probably), so I have had very little experience parenting a non-nursing child so far. She has eased me into it by cutting down on nursing gradually though. As my children get older, nursing will be less important to my parenting, but that is a phase of parenting that I haven't really had much experience with yet. But I think that when nursing goes away, I have a good foundation to move on to the next stage with. And in 5 years, maybe I'll have some other passion relating to elementary aged kids since that will be what I'm doing and thinking about every day rather than breastfeeding. Or maybe it will be about special needs and IEPs if we continue down that route with my little one. For now, my little one isn't even 2 yet, so I think I still have some more breastfeeding years in front of me.
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:47 AM
 
1,302 posts, read 1,531,080 times
Reputation: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
When I say that I don't know how I would parent without breastfeeding, I am referring to parenting an infant and toddler, when breastfeeding is a very frequent occurrance throughout the day. Breastfeeding affects so many aspects of my parenting in this stage besides just feeding, from sleeping to illness to separation to injury to convenience to entertainment, etc. I breastfeed pretty much on-demand until age 2 or so - sometimes baby is hungry, but other times just thirsty, or just wanting comfort and closeness. Breastfeeding allows baby to nurse as long as she wants to get what she is needing. When baby fusses, the first thing that I try is nursing. If I need to talk or listen to an adult, I may nurse the baby to be assured of quiet. When baby is sick, the only thing she wants to do is nurse, so I let her nurse constantly. I know that I can always keep her hydrated and fed even when she refuses to eat or drink because she feels sick. I encourage my babies to comfort nurse, and nursing fixes boo boos and upsets quickly. Breastfeeding has been a nice way for me and my baby to reconnect at the end of the work day after being separated, and yes, I think that it contributed to facilitating our bond despite being separated for work. I have also visited both of my children on my lunch break to nurse them. Having to pump while we are separated keeps my mind on my kids even when we are apart. Breastfeeding has given me an excuse not to leave my kids for long periods of time, when others have pressured me to do so. If I want baby to sleep, nurse the baby. At night, I co-sleep and let the baby nurse at will, and as a result we both sleep all night and get plenty of rest. I don't believe in sleep training, so if I wasn't breastfeeding, I don't know how I'd sleep! And I also think that night-nursing and co-sleeping have contributed to our bond despite being separated for work. Breastfeeding helped my daughter finally understand communication because it was the thing that most motivated her. That's the kind of thing that I'm talking about when I say that breastfeeding is a way of parenting or a lifestyle for me. At LLL, we call it "mothering through breastfeeding". Obviously, other parents accomplish these things in other ways besides breastfeeding, and I would too if I had to. But breastfeeding is my go-to multi-tool in my tool kit, and I would find it difficult to parent without it during the baby and toddler stage. Particularly in terms of on-demand feeding and comfort sucking, sleeping, and separations.

My oldest child is 4 years old and just weaned (maybe, probably), so I have had very little experience parenting a non-nursing child so far. She has eased me into it by cutting down on nursing gradually though. As my children get older, nursing will be less important to my parenting, but that is a phase of parenting that I haven't really had much experience with yet. But I think that when nursing goes away, I have a good foundation to move on to the next stage with. And in 5 years, maybe I'll have some other passion relating to elementary aged kids since that will be what I'm doing and thinking about every day rather than breastfeeding. Or maybe it will be about special needs and IEPs if we continue down that route with my little one. For now, my little one isn't even 2 yet, so I think I still have some more breastfeeding years in front of me.
So the only coping skills your children learn is breast feeding is a cure all for everything?
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:05 PM
 
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Wait. How does breast feeding and "entertainment" even fit in the same sentence?

ADVentive how on earth are your children going to know how to live their lives if the breast has been used for a cure-all for everything up until the age of four? And maybe beyond. I'm stunned. By the age of four if my kids had a "boo-boo" (we never used that term BTW) I was urging them to pick themselves up and dust themselves off. By the time they were four they were each pretty independent little guys. We encouraged them to be.

(I have to say I'm learning a lot about different styles of mothering from you. But my jaw has dropped a couple of times.)
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:07 PM
 
1,302 posts, read 1,531,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Wait. How does breast feeding and "entertainment" even fit in the same sentence?

ADVentive how on earth are your children going to know how to live their lives if the breast has been used for a cure-all for everything up until the age of four? And maybe beyond. I'm stunned. By the age of four if my kids had a "boo-boo" (we never used that term) I was urging them to pick themselves up and dust themselves off.
But Mommy there is blood running down my arm!!

Rub some dirt on it, you're fine
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 5,959,678 times
Reputation: 2620
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Firstly, nobody's saying to stop "pushing" breastfeeding. There's nothing wrong with that. But know your audience. What is the point of "pushing" breastfeeding to a bunch of women who have already had their babies and have made it work one way or another? What are you trying to achieve by doing that but to make mothers that didn't breastfeed feel inadequate?
I don't think that I am doing that. I agree that there is no point in "pushing" mothers who have already had their babies. They are not going to go back in time and do something different. It's over. But if they are spreading misinformation about breastfeeding to others, then I would like to correct that before misconceptions spread.

Quote:
That was the point of the article - not that breastfeeding and formula is the same, but that once the decision has been made you need to respect the other person's path whether you agree with it or not.
I understand that that's what you got from the article. That's not the message I saw. I already quoted the relevant passage.


Quote:
According to the CDC, 3 out of 4 women start off breastfeeding. So what makes you think new mothers are not getting the message? The OP's article is only ONE article. The vast majority of the info out there is that breastfeeding is best. To say that this one article is going to influence women to the point that fewer will breastfeed based on that alone is to severely undermine the intelligence of mothers to be and to insinuate that without your input the rest of us morons would be not capable of making an informed decision.

The reasons mothers give up on breastfeeding are many and complicated. It's a good thing to have a support network. But to suggest that we are unaware of the benefits by now is just insulting.

And the people on here that say it doesn't matter, don't mean it in the way you think. They are saying that there is not as big a difference in the outcome as one would be led to believe. Based on their experience with their own children, they are saying that they have not suffered great hardships as a result of their babies being formula fed - health wise, bonding wise, whatever wise. This is something you probably don't like to hear, just as I prefer not to be constantly told my baby is going to be a sub par human being because she was not exclusively breastfed. I would be curious to put two preschoolers together and see if you could pick the breastfed one vs the bottle fed one.
Yes, 3 out of 4 start off breastfeeding. But only 1 in 8 are exclusively breastfeeding at 6 months and 1 in 5 are breastfeeding at all at a year, which are the minimum recommendations. Half of those who are breastfed are also supplemented with formula before 6 months, a quarter were already supplemented within 2 days of birth. So while most people start out breastfeeding at birth, most people also end up with formula at some point too. It is not because most mother/baby pairs are not physically able to breastfeed. The question then is: why are mothers making that choice? There are many reasons, of course. I am interested in dispelling myths and removing barriers that these families face. I believe that one reason for this is that they just don't think it makes a real difference, and I think that the article validates that.

I am not saying that this one article is going to influence people not to breastfeed. I am saying that this article is reflective of a greater movement and a popular opinion that breastfeeding just doesn't matter. I think that several people on this thread have expressed that opinion as well, despite all of the "breast is best" information that is so well-known. People don't believe it, because most people they know were not breast-fed, maybe they were not breast-fed themselves, maybe their own children were not breast-fed, and they look around and think that we all seem "just fine" and they think that they are "just fine" and they think that their children are more than fine. I understand that anecdotal evidence is very convincing to most people, and as a scientist it is frustrating that people trust it over statistics. But as much as you tell me that "everyone knows breast is best", I can assure you that there are many, many folks who don't think it matters at all.

The article was posted. I disagreed with the article. End of story. You would think that I started a thread saying "Bottle feeding parents are all irresponsible and don't care about their children. They are bad people and bad parents." I am not even pushing breastfeeding on anyone here, whether you tried and failed or you think it's a bunch of bunk. I am disagreeing with an article that was posted and explaining why.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 5,959,678 times
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I am not expecting you guys to agree with my methods of parenting, particularly with parenting through breastfeeding. I was just answering the question about why I say it is integral to my parenting style and why I would have difficulty parenting without it. I'm not really trying to have "debate my life", I am just trying to answer your questions as honestly as I can. I know that I am not "mainstream".
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:23 PM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,732,898 times
Reputation: 11008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
When I say that I don't know how I would parent without breastfeeding, I am referring to parenting an infant and toddler, when breastfeeding is a very frequent occurrance throughout the day. Breastfeeding affects so many aspects of my parenting in this stage besides just feeding, from sleeping to illness to separation to injury to convenience to entertainment, etc. I breastfeed pretty much on-demand until age 2 or so - sometimes baby is hungry, but other times just thirsty, or just wanting comfort and closeness. Breastfeeding allows baby to nurse as long as she wants to get what she is needing. When baby fusses, the first thing that I try is nursing. If I need to talk or listen to an adult, I may nurse the baby to be assured of quiet. When baby is sick, the only thing she wants to do is nurse, so I let her nurse constantly. I know that I can always keep her hydrated and fed even when she refuses to eat or drink because she feels sick. I encourage my babies to comfort nurse, and nursing fixes boo boos and upsets quickly. Breastfeeding has been a nice way for me and my baby to reconnect at the end of the work day after being separated, and yes, I think that it contributed to facilitating our bond despite being separated for work. I have also visited both of my children on my lunch break to nurse them. Having to pump while we are separated keeps my mind on my kids even when we are apart. Breastfeeding has given me an excuse not to leave my kids for long periods of time, when others have pressured me to do so. If I want baby to sleep, nurse the baby. At night, I co-sleep and let the baby nurse at will, and as a result we both sleep all night and get plenty of rest. I don't believe in sleep training, so if I wasn't breastfeeding, I don't know how I'd sleep! And I also think that night-nursing and co-sleeping have contributed to our bond despite being separated for work. Breastfeeding helped my daughter finally understand communication because it was the thing that most motivated her. That's the kind of thing that I'm talking about when I say that breastfeeding is a way of parenting or a lifestyle for me. At LLL, we call it "mothering through breastfeeding". Obviously, other parents accomplish these things in other ways besides breastfeeding, and I would too if I had to. But breastfeeding is my go-to multi-tool in my tool kit, and I would find it difficult to parent without it during the baby and toddler stage. Particularly in terms of on-demand feeding and comfort sucking, sleeping, and separations.
I respect you raising your children the way you want to and to be resolute despite going against the norm and all that that entails. I think that takes a lot of courage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
My oldest child is 4 years old and just weaned (maybe, probably), so I have had very little experience parenting a non-nursing child so far. She has eased me into it by cutting down on nursing gradually though. As my children get older, nursing will be less important to my parenting, but that is a phase of parenting that I haven't really had much experience with yet. But I think that when nursing goes away, I have a good foundation to move on to the next stage with. And in 5 years, maybe I'll have some other passion relating to elementary aged kids since that will be what I'm doing and thinking about every day rather than breastfeeding. Or maybe it will be about special needs and IEPs if we continue down that route with my little one. For now, my little one isn't even 2 yet, so I think I still have some more breastfeeding years in front of me.
Oh lordy, heaven help us all!
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:24 PM
 
Location: In a house
13,258 posts, read 34,677,768 times
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What I get from ADVentive's posts, collectively, is that she feels her role as a human being is to be an automated feeder-pump for her infants, much as a dairy cow is used to continually pump milk. Which is fine, if you enjoy giving control over your body to your child, after having spent 9 months of your life giving control over your body to your child, and then continuing to give that control to your child until your child finally wakes up one day and says, "Mom, get that thing out of my face and mix me a martini."

This is what I get out of reading her posts. Whether she intends it or not, it's what I get from it. Much like what she gets from the initial article is likely not even remotely what was intended by the author.
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