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It's the endless guilt trip the militant breast feeders lay on women who can't that I object to. "You aren't breast feeding?" (Total look of horror and a lecture.) "Lady. Go away. It's none of your business."
I have never approached anyone to ask them whether they are breastfeeding or not, or to criticize them about it either way.
I have never approached anyone to ask them whether they are breastfeeding or not, or to criticize them about it either way.
That wasn't directed at you specifically.
But those women are out there. The zealots who will make comments to total strangers. Even the, "You aren't breastfeeding? Oh, my. I breastfed and it made me so much closer to my children. It's a pity. You know, your children will suffer." with an air of superiority that is truly breathtaking. My DH called them the Boob Brigade. He wasn't amused.
I'm not saying that people don't care about their babies. I'm saying that people don't care about breastfeeding because they do not believe that there is any substantial difference between breast milk and formula. They may be told that "breast is best", but what they internalize is that formula is "just fine" and "just as good".
I shouldn't jump into this. But it is "fine." It I don't consider it fine, then I wouldn't have used it. Is it "just as good?" Probably not, but for what it's worth, it was fine for me.
And just to throw a monkey wrench in the argument. My son didn't latch on well, and having him latch wasn't super important to me, so I pumped exclusively for three months (no small task) and then built up a freezer stash that lasted him another month before we switched to formula. Imagine my surprise when I visited a lacation website during that time and found out THAT wasn't even good enough. I was still damaging my "bonding" relationship. That's when I rolled my eyes and was done with the foolishness.
And to the person worried about cupcakes and pizza at a birthday party? Please. Everything in moderation.
I'm not saying that people don't care about their babies. I'm saying that people don't care about breastfeeding because they do not believe that there is any substantial difference between breast milk and formula. They may be told that "breast is best", but what they internalize is that formula is "just fine" and "just as good".
It's a very fine line that one must walk between pointing out all the merits of breastfeeding, and then dealing with the emotional repurcussions when a woman finds, despite trying her very best, that she cannot breastfeed. Sure, go ahead, guilt people like crazy. Formula is terrible, you are setting your child up for a lifetime of problems, etc. How is that possibly going to help anyone? You chose to breastfeed, and you succeeded, good for you. I chose to breastfeed, and I succeeded, good for me. What would you like to tell women who have tried to breastfeed, and it didn't work out for them? That they are failing their children? That they are giving their children a poor start in life. Really, I'd like to know.
That's the whole point of this thread. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, and the breastfeeding extremists sometimes just go too far. They are no longer respected as LL was back in the day. Some lactivists are abrasive, offensive, and completely missing the point; what is the best for that particular mom and baby. Breastfeeding is optimal. That's not up for debate, no one argues that point. And thanks to an enormous selection of formula types, bottle feeding is pretty darned good too.
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Originally Posted by ADVentive
I didn't start this thread. I was asked my opinion and gave it on an internet message board which was designed specifically for that purpose. Please don't think that I am cruising the local mall for bottle-feeders to emotionally scar. How am I emotionally manipulating and harming anyone?
I never suggested such a thing. I will say however, that the link you posted was very emotive, filled with emotionally manipulative language. You may call it compelling, I may call it accusatory. You may think it supported your opinions, I see it more as inflammatory. I have no idea what you do and say in your real life, can you honestly say that you do not have the same approach when face-to-face that you do here?
Before I had kids, I was pretty into dog rescue, and believe me, I had plenty of people saying the same kinds of things to me then - that there are other, more worthy causes, that I should be spending my time helping people, not dogs. Everyone has their own issues that they are passionate about solving or advocating for. The quality of food for children, particularly that served in schools, is certainly an issue. I have heard stories in the news recently about it. Other people are passionate about things like BPA in plastics, or toxins in materials toys are made out of. Some people are concerned about the amount of physical activity children are getting, or the amount of outdoor time, or imaginitive play time. Some people are passionate about veterans issues. Some people are passionate about the homeless. Some people are passionate about recycling. Some people want to save the whales. There are many, many issues out there that different people take on as their own personal passions, their own ways to try to make the world a better place. And yes, some causes are more life and death than others. But that doesn't mean that someone else's cause is unworthy of any attention. My passion at this time in my life happens to be breastfeeding. I am not going to dispute that there are many, many other worthy causes to be passionate about too.
Yes, but I would argue that not all of these causes/issues are equally important or in equal need of being urgently brought to the general public's attention.
"Special interest" is one thing.
Issues that MASSIVELY affect the population as a whole, are not a "special interest".
What I mentioned is MASSIVE - as it applies to all human beings, at all ages, and it drastically affects their quality of life, life expectancy and you name it. I wouldn't compare it to "dog rescue" (not that I think dogs should not be rescued).
But that's just me.
I also think that "breast-feeding" is less important than the "rest-of-your-life feeding".
The latter is really gonna do you in if you mess with it.
It's a very fine line that one must walk between pointing out all the merits of breastfeeding, and then dealing with the emotional repurcussions when a woman finds, despite trying her very best, that she cannot breastfeed. Sure, go ahead, guilt people like crazy. Formula is terrible, you are setting your child up for a lifetime of problems, etc. How is that possibly going to help anyone? You chose to breastfeed, and you succeeded, good for you. I chose to breastfeed, and I succeeded, good for me. What would you like to tell women who have tried to breastfeed, and it didn't work out for them? That they are failing their children? That they are giving their children a poor start in life. Really, I'd like to know.
This^^^ - I know people's intentions are good, when they passionately promote breastfeeding. But if you are unable to do it, when you are aware of all of the good reasons, and you agonize over it - it takes an emotional toll. At a time when, especially if you're a new parent, you're extremely vulnerable to criticism.
I think it's odd, too, that people who are promoting bonding and good emotional health with their babies think nothing of stomping all over the feelings of other mothers who are basically being told that they are raising an inferior product, and that it's all their fault. As if there weren't enough anxiety already.
How about the implications of a highly stressed new parent and the effect that has on the bond with the baby? Less guilt and more compassion would go a long way toward helping any mother with the process, no matter what their decision.
It's a very fine line that one must walk between pointing out all the merits of breastfeeding, and then dealing with the emotional repurcussions when a woman finds, despite trying her very best, that she cannot breastfeed. Sure, go ahead, guilt people like crazy. Formula is terrible, you are setting your child up for a lifetime of problems, etc. How is that possibly going to help anyone? You chose to breastfeed, and you succeeded, good for you. I chose to breastfeed, and I succeeded, good for me. What would you like to tell women who have tried to breastfeed, and it didn't work out for them? That they are failing their children? That they are giving their children a poor start in life. Really, I'd like to know.
That's the whole point of this thread. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, and the breastfeeding extremists sometimes just go too far. They are no longer respected as LL was back in the day. Some lactivists are abrasive, offensive, and completely missing the point; what is the best for that particular mom and baby. Breastfeeding is optimal. That's not up for debate, no one argues that point. And thanks to an enormous selection of formula types, bottle feeding is pretty darned good too.
I never suggested such a thing. I will say however, that the link you posted was very emotive, filled with emotionally manipulative language. You may call it compelling, I may call it accusatory. You may think it supported your opinions, I see it more as inflammatory. I have no idea what you do and say in your real life, can you honestly say that you do not have the same approach when face-to-face that you do here?
Every post of yours in this thread deserves a thousand reps.
Honestly, that evil breast feeding troll that harrassed me at the hospital was the one who made me feel great about my decision not to breastfeed. She belonged to some kind of nasty little cult of superiority and I, and my son, were better off for not being a tiny little part of her sick little world. Had my Dr not entered the room and escorted her out, it would have ended badly for her.
Seriously, the LL people are not doing the breast is best crusade any favors.
Here's a story about how "good" breastfeeding is ALWAYS the best choice - I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it here before.
Once upon a time, when I was in college, I had a friend named Ken. He was one of my "street" friends; he hung out in Harvard Square along with all my other "street" friends. Some of them were homeless. Some had homes, but chose not to live in them. Some had homes, and chose not to divulge the information. And a very few, such as myself, had apartments in town, and homes with our families elsewhere. Ken would have had a home, and we all think he probably did, but he was usually too "out to lunch" for anyone to know for sure.
He was a bonafide genius; spoke several languages fluently, and had a full 4-year scholarship to Harvard University. He protected me when I played guitar in the subways - he would come down with me and watch over me and make sure no one tried to steal money from my case, or get too physically close. He would also play my guitar in my absence and keep my stuff safe if I needed to go "topside" to grab a cup of coffee or go to the bathroom.
He was also clinically psychotic. It turns out, he was allergic to his mother's breastmilk when he was born. His mother didn't know that; he was a hearty feeder. He thrived, physically...but his "wiring" in his head got all short-circuited. He weaned, and was introduced to dairy, which he was also allergic to. He was allergic to a certain enzyme in protein present in ALL milk products, including human, goat, cow, etc. But they didn't know this, because he didn't display any *physical* symptoms typical of food allergies. By the time he was 10, he was on anti-psychotic medicine.
The reason he used to protect me, was because he was convinced I was the Princess. He was also convinced he was a Secret Service agent in the field on a mission to keep me safe from the communist regime. He also would sometimes disappear for weeks, and show up trudging through the snow barefoot, reeking of stale urine, and have a huge wad of money in his pockets. And sometimes he'd show up wearing a brand new outfit and snazzy pair of shades. He was never able to explain why. This happened, because sometimes he'd forget to take his meds. He would require them for the rest of his life and whenever he forgot to take them, he would shift back into his insane little psychotic world (which was often entertaining to observers). He was in and out of lucidity the entire year I knew him. I never knew if I'd be talking to Kenny or Skip or OT. They were all the same wonderful man - somewhere, hidden inside.
This is what happens, when SOME people do what is supposedly ALWAYS the optimal choice.
Moral of the story: Anyone who thinks breastfeeding is -always- the optimal choice, is simply wrong. Often, it is. But sometimes, it is unequivocally not.
You know, I have a lot of respect for you, Adventive - but this just demonstrates Zimbochick's point.
There are those of us who had great trouble breastfeeding and feel terrible about not being able to do so. It's not always a personal choice, sometimes it's a choice between feeding your baby and not feeding your baby.
Posting that formula is not equivalent to breastmilk yet again - which a fact that is rammed down every new mother's throat on a daily basis - just adds to the anxiety and guilt of those who cannot breastfeed for whatever reason. We are well aware of it.
Some of us would like to "pretend" that they are, at least on some level, both good for the baby because it does us no good to sit and stew over that which could not be helped.
I have seen many mothers, struggling to breast feed, bring their babies to the office b/c the babies are constantly fussy, screaming all day, etc. Many of these little babies are hungry, and they are not gaining weight, a sure indication they're not getting enough to eat. I remember the doctor saying of one, "That kid would have drunk motor oil if I'd given it to him". Now we do encourage these moms to pump their breasts so they won't dry up, but when the baby is screaming and not gaining weight, they need food! If that food is formula, so be it. BTW, I breast fed two, one to 20 months and the other to 23 mos, so I am not opposed to breat feeding.
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Originally Posted by Zimbochick
All we can do is educate ourselves, make the best choice for ourselves, and quit being so hard on our sisters.
It's a very fine line that one must walk between pointing out all the merits of breastfeeding, and then dealing with the emotional repurcussions when a woman finds, despite trying her very best, that she cannot breastfeed. Sure, go ahead, guilt people like crazy. Formula is terrible, you are setting your child up for a lifetime of problems, etc. How is that possibly going to help anyone?
Yes, there are certainly people who have, as you say, tried their very best, and still cannnot breastfeed. Sometimes there are circumstances beyond our controls. But I don't understand why someone would feel guilty if they tried their best. I know moms who have been in situations where they wanted desperately to breastfeed but couldn't. One was diagnosed with cancer and had to wean to undergo treatment. One had a baby with a cleft palate who physically couldn't latch. They don't feel guilty, it was out of their control. They feel sad about it, and regret that they couldn't have the breastfeeding relationship with those children that they had enjoyed with their previous children. But not guilt. The fact that the situation was beyond their control does not change the fact that formula is not equivalent to breastmilk. Formula is an adequate substitute for breast milk, and it is essential for situations like these mothers found themselves in, when the alternative is that the baby doesn't eat. But I just don't think it does anyone any favors to pretend it's all the same and it makes no difference. The substance does not differ depending on whether the mother had a choice or not.
And, as many mothers as there are who have tried their best to breastfeed and failed, there are just as many I think who have not tried very much at all. Who have made that decision based on the premise that it really doesn't matter what you feed the baby, as long as the baby gets fed, and I believe that is the position of the author of the article in the OP. They may believe that "breast is best" in that breast is optimal, special, extra, above and beyond. But formula is normal and they see no reason to try to breastfeed. I think it's like how they may see organic food. They may think, yah, organic food is probably better, but whatever, it costs more, and it's not worth it, and everyone else I know eats this regular food and they seem just fine, so why should I pay more for organic. If it happens to be available to me for no extra effort, then sure, I'll try it, but I'm not going to put a lot of thought and effort into it.
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You chose to breastfeed, and you succeeded, good for you. I chose to breastfeed, and I succeeded, good for me. What would you like to tell women who have tried to breastfeed, and it didn't work out for them? That they are failing their children? That they are giving their children a poor start in life. Really, I'd like to know.
Well, I don't want to tell them that it's all the same and it doesn't matter, no. I guess I'd tell them that you do what you have to do, but do it with your eyes open. Really, I don't tell them anything though, once they have already made the decision. Now, if someone asks me my opinion when they are considering quitting, then yes, I will tell them.
On one of my boards last week, someone with a 6 week old baby was having some problems and asked if people thought it was really worth it to breastfeed or if she should just give up and use formula instead. And there were many responses from people who said, just use formula, it doesn't matter as long as baby is fed, you will be happier, etc etc. Those are the people who I see as perpetuating the "they are essentially equivalent" argument that I am talking about, often in an effort to protect the mother from feeling guilty about not breastfeeding should she choose to quit. And that was not my response to her. My response was that I do believe it is worth it, that 6 weeks is still so early in the game, that it will get better, that it is worth it for the nutrition and immunities, but also for the nursing relationship. But even so, this was someone who had specifically asked for opinions - I would never approach a bottle-feeding stranger to tell them my feelings on breastfeeding unsolicited.
I have, however, approached breastfeeding strangers to tell them "good for you", but I can't see what would be so wrong about that. I am just trying to counteract some of the negative comments that breastfeeding mothers often get when out in public. I'm sure that it is true that there is the occasional breastfeeding fanatic who criticizes mothers who are bottle feeding in public, but I think it is much more common for breastfeeding mothers to hear that criticism, and to not only be criticized, but also told that they can't feed their child in public by people in positions of authority (as opposed to just passersby). And I have never heard a story of a bottle-feeding mother being kicked out of an establishment, told to cover her child's head while feeding, or told to feed in the bathroom by management. I think that in the "random strangers approaching you to criticize" department, that breastfeeders have a much bigger problem with this.
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That's the whole point of this thread. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, and the breastfeeding extremists sometimes just go too far. They are no longer respected as LL was back in the day. Some lactivists are abrasive, offensive, and completely missing the point; what is the best for that particular mom and baby.
I haven't found that to be the case, but I suppose that I have a different perspective since I'm "one of them". But I don't know anyone who makes comments to strangers like that. At LLL we help people who come into our meetings asking for help with breastfeeding. We don't go out seeking people to convert. What would be the point in that? Tell the formula feeders to re-lactate? What? LLL is even sometimes frustratingly non-political, refusing to be involved in things like nurse-ins or other activism when it happens, in an effort to be rid of the reputation that you describe.
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I never suggested such a thing. I will say however, that the link you posted was very emotive, filled with emotionally manipulative language. You may call it compelling, I may call it accusatory. You may think it supported your opinions, I see it more as inflammatory. I have no idea what you do and say in your real life, can you honestly say that you do not have the same approach when face-to-face that you do here?
The link I posted was to a classic piece (1996) about the language used to describe breastfeeding. About how the use of phrases like "breast is best" do more to hurt than help breastfeeding because it turns formula into the norm and breastfeeding into something special and extra. About how when breastfeeding is seen as the norm, there are not "advantages" to breastfeeding, but rather "disadvantages" to not breastfeeding. And about the concept of guilt, which is what I quoted and have discussed here. It points out that even the language that we routinely use to talk about breastfeeding, is really a reflection of our formula-feeding culture. I think that reading that piece was an eye-opener for me, for seeing things that we commonly say in a different light. I think that the author is somewhat more extreme than I am, but I do appreciate her insights on the language topic in particular.
I would say that in real life, I typically avoid bringing up the topic of breastfeeding, particularly with new moms, because of the politicization of the issue. I will talk about it with my breastfeeding friends and with my family, and I am always posting links on my Facebook, but I don't approach strangers. If someone approaches me, I am happy to talk to them about it though, and that does happen to me often enough because I have a reputation as the "expert" on this topic at work and people do come and seek me out for breastfeeding advice (or really, more commonly, pumping at work advice). I only debate the topic online... or with my mother (and that's a whole different story!).
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