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Old 05-26-2011, 12:00 PM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
9,187 posts, read 3,942,219 times
Reputation: 7878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Nobody supplied anything to the OP's daughter. This is basically a troll thread.
For a troll thread, Drover, you're sure all over it.

I think you might be belaboring your point here. Hmmm?
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:05 PM
 
13,569 posts, read 14,794,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebri View Post
I think there are a few factors that contribute to this. Driving, for one. In Europe, you have to be 18 to drive. Another thing is that in many other countries, children are exposed to alcohol at younger ages at home and know their effects so may be less likely to do something irresponsible like drink and drive. Drinking ages in many European countries is 16 to 18 and some countries have no age limitation. But, they probably also don't have access to cars, and gasoline is prohibitively expensive in Europe.

Generally, I think they are educated about the dangers of drinking at younger ages then their U.S.A. counterparts and may have more of an air of responsibility about it. Our culture worships binge drinking and irresponsible habits in movies and TV and many younger kids see this. You can't tell me that doesn't affect them.
In a lot of areas of the United States, you need to be 17 to drive at all and 18 to drive without restrictions. Besides, it's not as if the drinking age itself is prohibiting teens from drinking and driving here. In Europe, the laws are also far stricter concerning DUI. No one with a half a brain is going to risk losing their license over an infraction. That is part of the nuance of their approach. Allow the drinking, but punish severely for abusing the priviledge.

The rest of your points I very much agree with. Children from an early age learn about the effects of alcohol and responsible consumption. Something that is generally criminalized in the United States.

As for the binge drinking, media is a reflection of society. Teen and college age kids certainly engage in binge drinking and make poor choices related to alcohol and media shows this. Of course, I could argue and many do, that the binge drinking is not caused by proclivity of Americans to binge drink. It is caused by our laws that force drinking to be an underground and taboo thing, which lends itself to binge drinking.

If it is illegal for parents to introduce their children to alcohol and learn to consume it responsibly, what do you think the effect is? IMO, far too many people take the stance of it's illegal, don't do it, period.
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:06 PM
 
13,569 posts, read 14,794,553 times
Reputation: 11518
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
I have also travelled abroad extensively. I seen my fair share of drunk, drugged-up, out of control European teenagers.
Of course it happens, but statistically they are far less likely than their American counterparts to engage in such behavior, especially binge drinking.
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:14 PM
 
13,569 posts, read 14,794,553 times
Reputation: 11518
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
NJGoat, your opening line was, "Only in the United States do people have such a conservative and backward view of consuming alcohol." That simply cannot be true. There are over six billion people in the world; surely there are some teetotalers outside our borders.

I really can't say whether being strict about alcohol "leads to far more problems," because each situation is complex and unique. I would absolutely not have been allowed to drink as a teen, but my family did not drink much and it did not interest me. My parents were strict, but that didn't turn me into a criminal or make me sneak around to find booze. On the other hand, my husband's parents did let him and and his sister drink when they were teens; they (my in-laws) are also alcoholics. My husband does not drink now for this reason--his parents never taught him by word or example when to say when, and he does not want to become like them. Clearly (to me, anyway), there is no pat answer to this situation.
The opening line was strongly worded and not as nuanced as I should have made it. A better opener may have been "compared to other western nations, the United States has a much more conservative outlook on the consumption of alcohol".

Of course, everything is more complex and there is no one size fits all answer. However, there is ample mounting evidence that shows the more restrictive laws in the United States tend to drive riskier behavior.

I guess I could frame it this way in terms of "complex and unique". What makes a 21 year old magically able to drink compared to say a 20 year and 364 day old? Wouldn't a better system remove the illegality aspect (perhaps by making purchase age resticted, but not consumption) and allow parents to determine the proper course in terms of allowing their children to consume alcohol?

Is it OK for me to suffer an investigation by CPS or the police showing up at my door, because I allowed my 16 year old son and two of his friends to have a few beers in the backyard during a BBQ when the boys were staying at my house and their parents had given me the OK?
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:32 PM
 
1,302 posts, read 858,086 times
Reputation: 1887
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
Ah, I see. I don't know whether I would or not. I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea ... I do not buy my daughter alcohol (although I did give her a sip of something once at her request, and she thought it was disgusting, as I expected ), and I would not allow her to go to a party like this. But I tend to mind my own business about this kind of thing, too. I would call the cops if I found out kids were drinking and driving, because that's a public safety issue, but if some 16-year-old kids down the street were drinking and playing Halo with a parent present--none of my business. I'm not going to march over there to see signed permission slips from the other kids' parents or anything like that. And if one of the kid's parents confronted me and asked, "You knew my child was drinking? Why didn't you say tell me? Why didn't you call the police?"--my answer would be, "Because you're his parent, not me."
This is me. One of my closest friends is named Mr. Nunya Business. If it didn't involve me or my children, I certainly would never insert myself into the situation.
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:34 PM
 
585 posts, read 617,967 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
While almost all nations do have an established drinking age of some sort, if you run down the list of "western" nations, the United States has the highest drinking age by far. In most countries it is split that beer/wine consumption is allowable in any environment at 16. Hard liquor is generally controlled to 18. However, almost all of them allow consumption at any age within the home. For instance, the UK stipulates you must be 5 to drink at home and allows it in public at 14 in a restaurant accompanied by your parents. At 16 you can drink/purchase wine and beer. At 18 it is wide open and you are also allowed to enter clubs. It is far more nuanced than a universal age of all or nothing.
Well now you are changing the story..
Before was the US now is well if you see the US is the highest...
Same here in the US, consumption at any age within the home, is legal.
it becomes illegal in NY and other states when they become drunk...
For example, i can give my son a glass of wine, but I cant give him shots of tequila...
I was drinking wine since I was 14, never more then one glass, never hard liquor, but this is not what we are talking about..
We are talking about teenage parties for the purpose of drinking(illegal) and maybe getting drunk. this is bad even if the parents are present...
Since the law (in this case and in this state) state that they can only drink in their parents house, and it cant be for the purpose of getting drunk.
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:51 PM
 
5,626 posts, read 2,532,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infiri View Post
Well now you are changing the story..
Before was the US now is well if you see the US is the highest...
Same here in the US, consumption at any age within the home, is legal.
it becomes illegal in NY and other states when they become drunk...
For example, i can give my son a glass of wine, but I cant give him shots of tequila...
I was drinking wine since I was 14, never more then one glass, never hard liquor, but this is not what we are talking about..
We are talking about teenage parties for the purpose of drinking(illegal) and maybe getting drunk. this is bad even if the parents are present...
Since the law (in this case and in this state) state that they can only drink in their parents house, and it cant be for the purpose of getting drunk.
The legalities vary greatly from state to state. In some states it's legal for a person under 21 to drink on private premises, but it's not legal to actually hand them the drink, for example, or to buy the drink for them. I guess it's ok if they brew their own.

But in PA, where I am, there are no exceptions to the drinking age of 21 at all whatsoever, even in church, and that's all there is to it.

You have to thoroughly look into all of the provisions of the actual statute in your particular state. They're pretty detailed, and in a lot of cases don't make any sense. However, you can be held liable for any problematic consequences in a lot of circumstances, so it's good to know where you stand with it all.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:16 PM
 
585 posts, read 617,967 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
The legalities vary greatly from state to state. In some states it's legal for a person under 21 to drink on private premises, but it's not legal to actually hand them the drink, for example, or to buy the drink for them. I guess it's ok if they brew their own.

But in PA, where I am, there are no exceptions to the drinking age of 21 at all whatsoever, even in church, and that's all there is to it.

You have to thoroughly look into all of the provisions of the actual statute in your particular state. They're pretty detailed, and in a lot of cases don't make any sense. However, you can be held liable for any problematic consequences in a lot of circumstances, so it's good to know where you stand with it all.
I know that is why I posted the law in the state of the OP.. Minnesota,
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:47 PM
 
13,569 posts, read 14,794,553 times
Reputation: 11518
Quote:
Originally Posted by infiri View Post
Well now you are changing the story..
Before was the US now is well if you see the US is the highest...
Same here in the US, consumption at any age within the home, is legal.
it becomes illegal in NY and other states when they become drunk...
For example, i can give my son a glass of wine, but I cant give him shots of tequila...
I was drinking wine since I was 14, never more then one glass, never hard liquor, but this is not what we are talking about..
We are talking about teenage parties for the purpose of drinking(illegal) and maybe getting drunk. this is bad even if the parents are present...
Since the law (in this case and in this state) state that they can only drink in their parents house, and it cant be for the purpose of getting drunk.
I did not change my story at all. In my first post all I said was that the United States had conservative and backward drinking laws compared to other countries. Nothing I've said or anyone has posted since then has invalidated that statement. It has merely been codified as to what the laws in other countries are.

It is not legal in every state to consume alcohol under 21 and in the vast majority it is illegal to provide it. As Finster said, I guess they need to brew their own, lol.

So, you drank wine in your home at 14. You would also consider giving your son a glass of wine. However, you are also first to hop on the call CPS and the police bandwagon because some parents are hosting a party where they are letting kids drink. Regardless of the fact that the parents are present and I assume would go so far as not caring whether or not the other parents said it was OK solely based on the fact that you think it is wrong and illegal. Sorry, I guess I didn't realize you had been deputized as the neighborhood enforcer of drinking laws.

I think LeavingMass's friend Mr. Nunya Business is what applies most. Some parents are going to choose to allow it believing that the laws are foolish and allowing it in a supervised environment is the best choice for a multitude of reasons. It really is "nunya business" what those parents choose to do and you can make your own decisions for your own child without narcing on everyone in the neighborhood who views it differently. I seriously get the impression you are the lady in the HOA who measures her neighbors grass and has them cited for planting the wrong colored pansies.

The entire schtick about other countries was merely to highlight the fact that much of the western world views alcohol very differently from the United States and that there is a strong push to take a look at our drinking laws that for the most part simply aren't working. This is being backed up in part by many parents taking a more progressive view on the issue and that is their business, not yours.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:55 PM
 
Location: southwest TN
6,501 posts, read 6,472,082 times
Reputation: 10424
I must have missed the post where the OP changes the story to make it about others. If it had been me or my kids, I would have been up in arms! NO ONE usurps my rights to parent my children. NO ONE gives MY children alcohol. NO ONE knows whether there is a family history of allergy to alcohol (YES, it happens, frequently Native Americans, and my mother has an allergy to alcohol. She never could drink without becoming violently ill.) So I would be fit to be tied if someone gave my children alcohol or permitted it to be consumed in their home, knowingly, without my consent.

LIVID.
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