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Old 05-09-2011, 07:52 PM
 
Location: IL
12,116 posts, read 5,783,754 times
Reputation: 11654
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Agree.

The extent to which people jump at any spanker's throat, so ****-sure that EVERYONE should "discipline" the way it's done NOW, despite avalanche of evidence that "the way it's done now" results in anything BUT disciplined, respectful children...continues to amaze me.

We are now all living in the Hell at the end of the road paved with good intentions.
I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you. If you choose to paddle/spank/tap/wallop, whatever, then as a parent, that is certainly your right, but the options are not only to beat the crap out of a child, or to do nothing. It is possible to discipline children successfully without laying a hand on them.

 
Old 05-09-2011, 10:55 PM
 
3,546 posts, read 3,048,702 times
Reputation: 3200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
It is possible to discipline children successfully without laying a hand on them.
Yes, it is possible to discipline SOME children without laying a hand on them. Those are called "children of lucky parents".
It is not possible to discipline ALL children without laying a hand on them.

Also, define "crap".
As in "beating the crap out of ...".

I am one of those parents as outraged at the fanatic rallying against any- and-all spanking as some parents are against spanking.

Spanking DOES NOT equal child abuse. Never did, never will.

Abuse is such a complex concept that involves a tremendous amount of psychological ill-will and intention to cause harm that will become manifest in many other ways, not just in the moment of "laying the hands on the child".

I also find the argument that "spanking seems to work in the short-run because the child only fears you" complete BS.

A child being fearful that something unpleasant might happen if he misbehaves DOES NOT translate into that child's doom and destruction for all eternity. It is OK sometimes for children to be a bit AFRAID that they will get in trouble. That doesn't mean they will always comply "out of fear" only and that as soon as the source of "threat" is removed, they will go wild with their misbehavior.

This is nothing but another one of those new age myths that have revolutionized child rearing by turning it into mushy noodles.

Yes, when children are so young and so immature, they may only comply out of fear. And this is perfectly fine.

Eventually, they internalize the value of behaving even if they first did it only out of fear. Most children mature and they eventually understand the reasons behind their caregivers' expectations that they behave.

It's really not rocket science - just common sense; and most "modern-minded" parents would be well-served if they dropped all those so-called "studies" showing how harmful spanking is and used instead a grain of common sense, just like generations upon generations of parents did before without producing "emotionally damaged" children.
 
Old 05-09-2011, 11:19 PM
 
1,075 posts, read 1,350,612 times
Reputation: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc View Post
If the OP is legitimate, then we know that he "whoops" DS's "ass" for doing NORMAL things for a 2.5 year old, like throwing toys.

This is NORMAL 2.5 year old behavior.

It is a parent's job to TEACH right from wrong, not just punish and put the fear of God into a little boy.

Given the OP's lack of (to me) patience and maturity, I think it is valid to question why he would expose a 4 year old to hunting. Furthermore, given the OP's posts, I would even worry about the boy's safety while out and about with the lawn mower.

And even if he doesn't let the child handle guns, does he not worry about stray shots or things like that?
You can't be serious! "Expose a 4 year old to hunting"? You make it sound like hunting alone is going to produce some sort of monster out of a 4 year old. If that's the case, I'm in big trouble. I went into labor elk hunting with my youngest. I even went hunting with my ob/gyn. Please don't even go there. Besides, just when did YOUR opinion of hunting with children come into the topic of a young dad asking for help and advice? Let's keep it on the subject at hand shall we?
 
Old 05-10-2011, 12:48 AM
 
Location: New York City
2,808 posts, read 3,812,132 times
Reputation: 3072
I think anyone who beats a child is an idiot. In this particular case one of two things will happen if this behavior continues. When this child is in kindergarten, it will get out that he is being beaten. Good luck with Child Protective Services. If it continues and goes undetected, don't be surprised when your stepson becomes a teen and beats the living crap out of you or maybe he'll end up shooting you with your hunting gun. That stuff happens in families like yours. Be a man and make a vow not to lay a finger on this child. You can do it!!
 
Old 05-10-2011, 07:56 AM
 
Location: You know... That place
1,899 posts, read 1,259,316 times
Reputation: 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Spanking DOES NOT equal child abuse. Never did, never will.
I may be one of the people that you think screamed "child abuse". I am not sure. In response to your statement above, I would just like to reply with what I posted on page 1 of this thread.

"If the spanking is so hard it leaves bruises, that is no longer spanking, it is beating."

I really do think there is a difference between the two. Once you get to the point of bruises, there is no other way to define it other than abuse.
 
Old 05-10-2011, 08:09 AM
 
Location: You know... That place
1,899 posts, read 1,259,316 times
Reputation: 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
My observation: I think everyone has missed the core point of the OP's post. He said that no one else is effectively disciplining this child - and he says the women are the ones he acts out with. Thus he has come to assume that his method must be the only method that works.

He came asking for help with disciplining!

What is happening is the women in this child's life have evidently not been able to effectively make the little boy understand the word "no" - and they have not insisted that he behave properly by giving him coping methods and drawing boundaries. Surely you all have seen these situations? Children figure out that "no" means nothing when there are no consequences. And those consequences have to be CONSISTENT.

The OP sees this type of behavior going on and he stated that he had been "given" the discipline role. He plainly said no one is doing anything to discipline this child - and that he has tried other methods before deciding that spanking is "what works." He feels spanking "worked" in his own family - and he assumes that since the child acts out with everyone but him - it must be the spanking that is making the difference.

I agree that spanking can engender not only fear - but also profound ambivalence about authority figures, distorted ideas about fair play, and may even be the source of some children's bullying behavior.

However, this dad is young; he is trying to do his best; and he has made a connection between behavior and spankings and is observing that it APPEARS the spankings are effective.

I think folks have given excellent advice about reading up on parenting techniques and ways to discipline that avoid hitting a child. But calling the OP a child abuser is not helping him see that his son may TEMPORARILY "toe the line" for his dad b/c of being spanked, but the longterm outcomes will most likely not be so positive. Spanking teaches children sooooo many negative lessons - fear is only one aspect. Fear of being spanked can push a child into passive aggressive behaviors, outright deceit, blame-shifting, refusal to take responsibility for actions, etc. etc.

I would like to point out that the biggest reason parents "fail" at successfully controlling and managing their children's behavior is b/c they are inconsistent. Psychologists advise that if you say "no" 9 out of 10 times, that gives a child a 10% chance of "getting away with it" - and that is enough to reinforce the continuing unwanted behaviors!

SO how about we give this young man some real info to help him work with his wife so that they are CONSISTENTLY working together to discipline this precious little boy as a TEAM?
I agree with what you are saying. However, I would like to reiterate what I said on Page 1 of this thread.

"The other thing I wanted to touch on was his disrespect for women. He will learn how to treat women by watching the men in his life. He will treat women the same way he sees you or any other male figures in his life treat women. You may think that you treat women well, but watch your actions very carefully and you may see the same actions that you are seeing in your step-son."

This is especially true with boys. I have seen it in real life. My sister is a single mom. Her little boy was always so sweet with her. He loved to cuddle, bring her flowers, help her out around the house, etc. She had a great boyfriend at the time. He was about 8. Things were still going well after the split. Unfortunately, she got involved with a guy who was verbally abusive to her. After just a couple of weeks, my nephew changed and started being verbally abusive to her too. He was taking his cues from the man in his life. When I talked to him about it, he said "That's what *John* does."

At home is where children learn about relationships and how to treat others. This may come across as judgmental, but after reading a couple of the OP's posts, I would not be surprised if he yelled at "mom" in front of the little boy, or talked down to her, or in any way "proved that he is the man of the house". The child will never learn to respect women if you don't respect them yourself.
 
Old 05-10-2011, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Yellow Brick Road
35,357 posts, read 42,333,840 times
Reputation: 19489
Quote:
Originally Posted by num1baby View Post
I agree with what you are saying. However, I would like to reiterate what I said on Page 1 of this thread.

"The other thing I wanted to touch on was his disrespect for women. He will learn how to treat women by watching the men in his life. He will treat women the same way he sees you or any other male figures in his life treat women. You may think that you treat women well, but watch your actions very carefully and you may see the same actions that you are seeing in your step-son."

This is especially true with boys. I have seen it in real life. My sister is a single mom. Her little boy was always so sweet with her. He loved to cuddle, bring her flowers, help her out around the house, etc. She had a great boyfriend at the time. He was about 8. Things were still going well after the split. Unfortunately, she got involved with a guy who was verbally abusive to her. After just a couple of weeks, my nephew changed and started being verbally abusive to her too. He was taking his cues from the man in his life. When I talked to him about it, he said "That's what *John* does."

At home is where children learn about relationships and how to treat others. This may come across as judgmental, but after reading a couple of the OP's posts, I would not be surprised if he yelled at "mom" in front of the little boy, or talked down to her, or in any way "proved that he is the man of the house". The child will never learn to respect women if you don't respect them yourself.
Very good point. Hopefully, the OP treats his wife with respect. I think that couples often lose sight that disparaging remarks about one another draw a picture of disrespect . . . i.e, "Mom can't cook a decent meal and she is lazy about cleaning up" . . . "Dad is so clumsy, he acts dumb" etc. It doesn't have to be actual name-calling to draw a picture of disrespect that a child can carry with him/her well into adulthood.
 
Old 05-10-2011, 08:51 AM
 
1,083 posts, read 1,362,199 times
Reputation: 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Yes, it is possible to discipline SOME children without laying a hand on them. Those are called "children of lucky parents".
It is not possible to discipline ALL children without laying a hand on them.

Also, define "crap".
As in "beating the crap out of ...".

I am one of those parents as outraged at the fanatic rallying against any- and-all spanking as some parents are against spanking.

Spanking DOES NOT equal child abuse. Never did, never will.

Abuse is such a complex concept that involves a tremendous amount of psychological ill-will and intention to cause harm that will become manifest in many other ways, not just in the moment of "laying the hands on the child".

I also find the argument that "spanking seems to work in the short-run because the child only fears you" complete BS.

A child being fearful that something unpleasant might happen if he misbehaves DOES NOT translate into that child's doom and destruction for all eternity. It is OK sometimes for children to be a bit AFRAID that they will get in trouble. That doesn't mean they will always comply "out of fear" only and that as soon as the source of "threat" is removed, they will go wild with their misbehavior.

This is nothing but another one of those new age myths that have revolutionized child rearing by turning it into mushy noodles.

Yes, when children are so young and so immature, they may only comply out of fear. And this is perfectly fine.

Eventually, they internalize the value of behaving even if they first did it only out of fear. Most children mature and they eventually understand the reasons behind their caregivers' expectations that they behave.

It's really not rocket science - just common sense; and most "modern-minded" parents would be well-served if they dropped all those so-called "studies" showing how harmful spanking is and used instead a grain of common sense, just like generations upon generations of parents did before without producing "emotionally damaged" children.
Should wives be subject to physical punishment too? That was done for generations upon generations without producing emotionally damaged women, so it must be right. It would probably go a long way toward reducing the high divorce rate in this country.

You realize that you are being just as judgmental as people who condemn spanking.

I personally do not believe in corporal punishment, but truthfully, I understand why parents spank. Kids are apt to act like complete turds from time to time.

Spanking can work, but I do not believe in hitting people. Especially people who are vulnerable and when there is an imbalance of power. Is it justified to hit an adult iwith mental retardation, cerebral palsy, autism or alzheimers? Or how about adults without any deficits who are just plain annoying? It would probably work, right? Why is okay to hit children, but not adults who are difficult to control behaviorally? I would really like to hear a good answer to that question.

There are very few one size fits all approaches to parenting. Some spank, some don't. I am against child abuse, and leaving bruises (especially on a routine basis) on a child IMO crosses the line into abuse. You have to hit pretty hard to leave bruises on someone's butt.
 
Old 05-10-2011, 12:49 PM
Status: "Love Wins in North Carolina!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
25,385 posts, read 16,543,547 times
Reputation: 30485
who says these prior generations of hit women did not end up emotionally damaged? It was not that long ago that a whole generation of women lived in valium from sun up to sundown. Alcohol was used to numb the pain. The children suffered as a result of these emotionally damaged women. Hitting is never good and never has been. Not for women, not for children.

It is a weak man who can only get his point across by hitting women and children and spanking is hitting.
 
Old 05-10-2011, 02:36 PM
 
1,083 posts, read 1,362,199 times
Reputation: 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
who says these prior generations of hit women did not end up emotionally damaged? It was not that long ago that a whole generation of women lived in valium from sun up to sundown. Alcohol was used to numb the pain. The children suffered as a result of these emotionally damaged women. Hitting is never good and never has been. Not for women, not for children.

It is a weak man who can only get his point across by hitting women and children and spanking is hitting.
I was being sarcastic in saying that the women weren't emotionally damaged. I said that because syracusa said that children who are hit by their parents aren't emotionally damaged. Unfortunately sarcasm doesn't always come across too clearly in writing.
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