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Old 09-18-2011, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 1,817,293 times
Reputation: 2356

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Ok, you can't make the statement in bold followed by the statement in red. Obviously what follows is - who are you to make that judgment? Making a living is hard enough, even if that is what she's "just" doing.

This whole judging thing is getting ridiculous, and is further proving the point posted again and again, which is: It shouldn't matter what people's choices are, what matters is that they have the right to choose. End of story.

Followed by: Epilogue - You can't expect everybody to respect the choices you make, regardless of who gave you the power to make them. Close book.
Yes, this. And this.

 
Old 09-18-2011, 06:48 PM
 
Location: state of transition
713 posts, read 390,946 times
Reputation: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Ok, you can't make the statement in bold followed by the statement in red. Obviously what follows is - who are you to make that judgment? Making a living is hard enough, even if that is what she's "just" doing.

This whole judging thing is getting ridiculous, and is further proving the point posted again and again, which is: c. End of story.

Followed by: Epilogue - You can't expect everybody to respect the choices you make, regardless of who gave you the power to make them. Close book.
She made the statement that a stay at home wife was not contributing to society--how is making your own living contributing to society apart from oneself. I agree with you. I can make the statement because I did, but what you mean is that I shouldn't have because it follows that who am I to make the judgement--

I was not clear, I should have found and quoted a few more of her posts, to make it clear. I'm sorry that I was not more clear--go back a few more pages--or go to her profile and click on find all posts--that should clear up the missunderstanding
 
Old 09-18-2011, 07:25 PM
 
9,325 posts, read 5,666,429 times
Reputation: 9357
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Ok, you can't make the statement in bold followed by the statement in red. Obviously what follows is - who are you to make that judgment? Making a living is hard enough, even if that is what she's "just" doing.

This whole judging thing is getting ridiculous, and is further proving the point posted again and again, which is: It shouldn't matter what people's choices are, what matters is that they have the right to choose. End of story.

Followed by: Epilogue - You can't expect everybody to respect the choices you make, regardless of who gave you the power to make them. Close book.
This post sums up umpteen pages nicely and should be the end of this thread as far as I am concerned.

Everyone judges everyone else, judgment itself is not inherently bad, what I should not be doing is stereotyping entire groups of people. On the other hand nearly everyone else is doing the exact same thing. Its kind of funny actually.

Anyway, I respect the right of people to MAKE their own choices, while completely reserving the right to have my own opinions about the inherent value of those choices.

Its vaguely like Voltaire, I may not agree with your choices but I will fight to the death for your right to make those choices.
 
Old 09-18-2011, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 1,817,293 times
Reputation: 2356
Quote:
Originally Posted by funisart View Post
She made the statement that a stay at home wife was not contributing to society--how is making your own living contributing to society apart from oneself. I agree with you. I can make the statement because I did, but what you mean is that I shouldn't have because it follows that who am I to make the judgement--

I was not clear, I should have found and quoted a few more of her posts, to make it clear. I'm sorry that I was not more clear--go back a few more pages--or go to her profile and click on find all posts--that should clear up the missunderstanding
I think there's still some misunderstanding. The posts you're referring to are pretty clearly in response to another poster who persistently equates the duties of a SAHM with a housewife, which they are not, and then makes some sweeping generalizations about feminism being the root cause of why she feels judged as a housewife. A number of posters, including rkb, have tried to explain that some of the judgments she reports may come from how she is presenting her argument. I'm reasonably sure the general consensus of the thread is that there are many valid ways to contribute to society, not just work.

As I've mentioned upteen times in this thread, I don't care who does what with her life, just as long as she owns it and it doesn't hurt anyone else. This is my disclaimer so I don't get flamed.

And for the record: I think whoever is working at the chocolate/candy factory is making a GREAT contribution to society!
 
Old 09-18-2011, 08:08 PM
 
Location: here
17,028 posts, read 14,549,044 times
Reputation: 13929
Quote:
Originally Posted by funisart View Post
I think what you need to be, when you are a stay at home wife with no kids, or an empty nester is to be a "self-starter." A self-starter is also valued in the workplace. If you can't think of worthwhile projects to accomplish, you definitely need a boss. You would never succeed as a Stay at Home.
Well, I am a SAHM currently, and have been plenty busy with the preschoolers up until this school year. I have found in the last few years I've been home, that I'm not great at getting the housework done, even though I'm home. I do the necessities. I don't live in a pig sty, but I don't "deep clean a room every day" either. And BTW, I have also been a 1/2 time working mom, and a full-time working mom, so I have an idea of what works for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by funisart View Post
I have read most of this thread--but may have missed something.

I am wondering what your job is, that it is such a contribution to the world, how are you "giving back? Or are you just making a living, and keeping the household at a minimum level. Who are you to make the judgment that doing only for oneself and one's husband is any lesser than say someone working in a factory making candy. Candy is not exactly a contribution to society--IMHO. Maybe she is enabling her husband to do a better job, maybe his job is contributing to the world.

I did want to maintain my housekeeping standards, so we scrimped and got a maid service every two weeks to do the heavy cleaning. Do you have kids??
Yes, you missed something. You are taking my post out of context. My issue with the particular poster in question is that she A) doesn't have kids but compares herself to a SAHM B) in her first post, laments that society doesn't appreciate her for being a housewife C) made a list of what she does on a normal day and ALL of it was for herself, her home, or her husband. My point, based on her list, was that, if she doesn't do anything for society or anyone outside her own home, why should society praise her for it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain View Post
I think there's still some misunderstanding. The posts you're referring to are pretty clearly in response to another poster who persistently equates the duties of a SAHM with a housewife, which they are not, and then makes some sweeping generalizations about feminism being the root cause of why she feels judged as a housewife. A number of posters, including rkb, have tried to explain that some of the judgments she reports may come from how she is presenting her argument. I'm reasonably sure the general consensus of the thread is that there are many valid ways to contribute to society, not just work.

As I've mentioned upteen times in this thread, I don't care who does what with her life, just as long as she owns it and it doesn't hurt anyone else. This is my disclaimer so I don't get flamed.

And for the record: I think whoever is working at the chocolate/candy factory is making a GREAT contribution to society!
^this.
 
Old 09-18-2011, 08:10 PM
 
Location: here
17,028 posts, read 14,549,044 times
Reputation: 13929
Quote:
Originally Posted by funisart View Post
She made the statement that a stay at home wife was not contributing to society--how is making your own living contributing to society apart from oneself. I agree with you. I can make the statement because I did, but what you mean is that I shouldn't have because it follows that who am I to make the judgement--

I was not clear, I should have found and quoted a few more of her posts, to make it clear. I'm sorry that I was not more clear--go back a few more pages--or go to her profile and click on find all posts--that should clear up the missunderstanding
it has become very convoluted, but the point is that she feels society should appreciate her for staying home. My point is - why?
 
Old 09-18-2011, 08:28 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 2,989,612 times
Reputation: 7225
Quote:
Originally Posted by funisart View Post
She made the statement that a stay at home wife was not contributing to society--how is making your own living contributing to society apart from oneself. I agree with you. I can make the statement because I did, but what you mean is that I shouldn't have because it follows that who am I to make the judgement--

I was not clear, I should have found and quoted a few more of her posts, to make it clear. I'm sorry that I was not more clear--go back a few more pages--or go to her profile and click on find all posts--that should clear up the missunderstanding
There's no misunderstanding. I know what she was saying, I've been following this thread from the beginning. I wasn't talking about what rkb said, I was talking about what you said.

As far as making one's living only contributing to oneself and not to society - well that statement should be so obviously erroneous that I don't know where to start. But in order to not go barreling off topic, suffice to say that some people do actually contribute more to society than others, and that's just a fact. I ain't no Dr Martin Luther King Jr, that's for certain.

It's whether you choose to either A) get offended by how others live their lives or B) get offended by what others think about how you live your life, or C) both of the above that's the issue. There's an abundance of all three going on in this thread, and that's the shame about it.

We all do it (judge). Hell, sometimes that's a necessary and useful tool. But it would nice if we could chill it out a bit, especially women regarding other women. We have enough problems.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: state of transition
713 posts, read 390,946 times
Reputation: 994
Default My earlier posts were in reaction to these negative judgmental statements

Quotes from the thread:

"""What I see society saying is, if you don't have kids, you should work

All I can picture for people with no kids, is women having lunch with friends, playing tennis, and getting their nails done

It sounds like you keep a very nice home, but nothing needs to be dusted every day. Bathrooms don't need to be cleaned every day. Floors don't need to be moped twice/week if only 2 people are walking on them. I don't know... It just seems like overkill. And if I baked that much I'd weigh 200 lbs!

I think what the other poster is trying to say is that people who do nothing but take care of their own homes are not contributing to society. They have a heck of a clean house, but who does that benefit besides themselves?

I am also honest enough to admit I personally have no respect for people who are educated and choose to not work (even if it is just volunteering somewhere) even when they have no children.

You are not helping society you are helping yourself and your husband. What is to be appreciated about that?

taking care of the home and husband does not have a larger value to society. Therefore it is less valuable than working or raising children.

I fully support your right to choose to be a housewife. No one is saying you do not have that right. But that does not mean I have to respect or value that choice. Hell, you have the right to be a stripper if it floats you boat it does not make it a respectable CHOICE.

continue to state is, it is not as valuable to society or has any intrinsic value in my opinion at all Therefore I, personally and as a family, do not value the choice by anyone (man or woman) to take care of a house and spouse as your primary activity

What do you do all day? I do not say this to be mean but housework takes what, maybe an hour a day tops?

doing nothing more or less than cleaning your house and feeding your spouse is not something I respect. Its a valid choice, just a wasteful one

He/she has done nothing to earn my respect. On the other hand, someone who only does for themselves and their spouse is probably not interested in the respect or well being of others.

And I would find being called a housewife a derogatory term

I just can't understand for the life of me why someone who is "educated" and childless chooses to stay home.

I would be soooooo bored being a "housewife"""""


No matter to whom these posters were reacting, they were dissing another woman's choice-- In my clumsy way I flubbed the point (being sarcastic) I was trying to make by saying this:

"""I am wondering what your job is, that it is such a contribution to the world, how are you "giving back? Or are you just making a living, and keeping the household at a minimum level. Who are you to make the judgment that doing only for oneself and one's husband is any lesser than say someone working in a factory making candy. Candy is not exactly a contribution to society--IMHO. Maybe she is enabling her husband to do a better job, maybe his job is contributing to the world. """

When I was trying to make a point that any of the choices are valid, and as I was so roundly chastened, who is to say what "job" is most important.

I do however feel that Chocolatiers are the best! I'm done.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 11:10 AM
 
5,748 posts, read 7,329,804 times
Reputation: 4378
Quote:
Originally Posted by funisart View Post
Quotes from the thread:

"""What I see society saying is, if you don't have kids, you should work

All I can picture for people with no kids, is women having lunch with friends, playing tennis, and getting their nails done

It sounds like you keep a very nice home, but nothing needs to be dusted every day. Bathrooms don't need to be cleaned every day. Floors don't need to be moped twice/week if only 2 people are walking on them. I don't know... It just seems like overkill. And if I baked that much I'd weigh 200 lbs!

I think what the other poster is trying to say is that people who do nothing but take care of their own homes are not contributing to society. They have a heck of a clean house, but who does that benefit besides themselves?

I am also honest enough to admit I personally have no respect for people who are educated and choose to not work (even if it is just volunteering somewhere) even when they have no children.

You are not helping society you are helping yourself and your husband. What is to be appreciated about that?

taking care of the home and husband does not have a larger value to society. Therefore it is less valuable than working or raising children.

I fully support your right to choose to be a housewife. No one is saying you do not have that right. But that does not mean I have to respect or value that choice. Hell, you have the right to be a stripper if it floats you boat it does not make it a respectable CHOICE.

continue to state is, it is not as valuable to society or has any intrinsic value in my opinion at all Therefore I, personally and as a family, do not value the choice by anyone (man or woman) to take care of a house and spouse as your primary activity

What do you do all day? I do not say this to be mean but housework takes what, maybe an hour a day tops?

doing nothing more or less than cleaning your house and feeding your spouse is not something I respect. Its a valid choice, just a wasteful one

He/she has done nothing to earn my respect. On the other hand, someone who only does for themselves and their spouse is probably not interested in the respect or well being of others.

And I would find being called a housewife a derogatory term

I just can't understand for the life of me why someone who is "educated" and childless chooses to stay home.

I would be soooooo bored being a "housewife"""""


No matter to whom these posters were reacting, they were dissing another woman's choice-- In my clumsy way I flubbed the point (being sarcastic) I was trying to make by saying this:

"""I am wondering what your job is, that it is such a contribution to the world, how are you "giving back? Or are you just making a living, and keeping the household at a minimum level. Who are you to make the judgment that doing only for oneself and one's husband is any lesser than say someone working in a factory making candy. Candy is not exactly a contribution to society--IMHO. Maybe she is enabling her husband to do a better job, maybe his job is contributing to the world. """

When I was trying to make a point that any of the choices are valid, and as I was so roundly chastened, who is to say what "job" is most important.

I do however feel that Chocolatiers are the best! I'm done.
Whoa!
 
Old 09-19-2011, 11:12 AM
 
Location: here
17,028 posts, read 14,549,044 times
Reputation: 13929
^ 3 of the above quotes are from me. I believe the rest are from another single poster. If you have an issue with that poster, quote her and ask for clarification. I never said I don't have any respect for housewives. I never said it was any of my business what they do. I did question it because I don't understand it, and I questioned why she thinks society should appreciate her for keeping a nice home, but I never went so far as to say I don't respect her choice or her right to make that choice.
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