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Old 09-26-2011, 06:30 PM
 
572 posts, read 1,295,840 times
Reputation: 425

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Insulting:
- I chose to work out of the home, because I want to be a good role model for my daughter
- I chose to work out of the home, because I'm educated
- I chose to work out of the home, because I wanted to contribute
- I chose to work out of the home, because I want to show my daughter equality of the sexes
- I chose to stay at home, because I don't want strangers raising my kids
- I chose to stay at home, because it's better for kids to have a mother at home
- I chose to stay at home, because I want to be there for my kids
- I chose to stay at home, because I actually enjoy spending time with my kids

Why? Because you are implying non-verbally that those who don't, don't want those things or don't provide those things.

 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:31 PM
 
13,233 posts, read 9,839,728 times
Reputation: 14277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I don't get it either. Somehow, saying the kids of working moms thrive is an insult to many SAHM's. And I don't get getting your nose out of joint when it's pointed out we chose to model different things for our kids. We did. I would think that people would be ok with what they CHOSE to model for their kids.

If you choose to live a certain way, you are teaching your kids that that is what is important. You are modeling for them living that way. That doesn't mean that's what they'll do but it stacks the odds in favor of that lifestyle. Odds have it my dd's will be WM's. They have the confidence to do what they want because I've showed them how it's done. You would think that if a lifestyle is important enough for you to choose to live it, you'd be ok with what it models for your kids.

I like that my kids see my dh and I as more equal. I like that I'm teaching my daughters how to balance family and work. I like that, by my actions, I show them the importance of an education every day. I really like what I model for my kids. I show them that women's careers are important. I show them that there is plenty of time for both career and home.
What, you think everything we learned and fought for has just vanished because we have chosen to spend some time with our children?

You think we all turned into some kind of uneducated doltish subservient unequal wives because we have a child who we'd like to nuture at home, and because we pick them over our careers, at that moment?

You really think, really, that going to work every day is the only way to instill the above values in a kid?

I find it unbelievably insulting, given the range of careers and wonderful lives the women who frequent this board have, that you would be so destitute of awareness as to insinuate that you show your daughters that women's careers are important, as if we don't. Just insulting beyond measure.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:31 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,656,471 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo61397 View Post
It's not an insult when it's say like that, what's insulting is you telling us that we are not adequate role models for our daughters when it comes to equality of the sexes, when you imply that education must be the reason why people chose to stay at home (rather than lifestyle or other factors), or when you post study after study and then imply from the data of that study that WOHM's are somehow better, happier, more successful, etc...

Defending your decisions is one thing, defending your decisions while insulting people who made the decision that seems opposite to your own is something completely different.
As the person who posted the actual studies I resent the implication that I have used those studies to state or even imply any of those things.

The point of those studies is that neither SAHM or WM needs to be defended, since they both result in the exact same measurable outcomes for children.

As for the fact, that the SAHM as a group have lower education levels, so what? We are not speaking about individuals, but rather groups, and the single best indicator of education level is SES, a one income family by definition is more likely to have less income which is what defines SES. If that does not apply to you, GREAT. It doesn't particularly apply to me either, and I am not twisted out about it.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,431,289 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
I have to stick my $.02 here. I'm just not sure why a mother needs to work outside the home in order for their daughters to grow up with that goal. Could you stand it if one of yours wanted to be a SAHM?

The way I have lived my life has little bearing on what my children will accomplish. That is up to them. We just supplied the means to their particular dreams, not ours. The eldest has already surpassed the education level of his parents, and the other two will most likely do the same. We value education, and they know it. We modeled it by being involved in their schooling from the beginning. I was able to do that precisely because I chose to stay home.

I have always felt equal to my husband, because he treats me as an equal. The same thing occurred when I was the child of a SAHM. My parents made all major decisions together. They stressed education also, even though my mother didn't finish college until I was out of high school.

I have never, ever watched daytime tv.
Because a picture is worth a thousand words. We don't just tell our dd's about the careers they could have, we show them the ones we have. We don't tell them they can balance family and career, we show them how to do it. We don't tell them men and women are equal and then take on traditional gender roles. We demonstrate living more equal roles. But for all we do, all we're doing is stacking the statistical deck. We can still end up with dd's who don't go to college because they just want to be mommies and stay home just as SAHM's can end up with dd's who are doctors, lawyers and engineers. They'll just have to figure out the juggling act on their own because their mothers didn't show them how to do it but I'm sure they'll figure it out. Women are pretty resilient.

We're not talking earth shattering differences here that would push to have all women in the work force by any means and no one claimed that. We're talking statistical averages. And, frankly, they make sense. This shouldn't come as a surprise, all things considered.

I do have to point out that WM's are involved in school too. You don't have to stay home to be involved in your children's school. In fact, at my dds' elementary school there were more WM volunteers than SAHM volunteers. Working moms are one up in that they already have day care in place for younger siblings so volunteering just requires taking an afternoon vacation from work. Many of the SAHMs had to find a sitter to volunteer. WM's do the same things SAHM's do. As a WM, I read nap time stories at my dd's day care every day, worked the computer lab at the elementary school, at least, once a week (I was the only one who could get the printers to work), I took my dd's to dance lessons, gynmastics and ice skating, I gave presentations on my career,I've chaperoned field trips, worked the lunch room, etc, etc, etc....working really doesn't stop you from doing these things. In fact, given day care is already in place for siblings, it can actually make it easier.

You have chosen to model what you have chosen to model. I'm really scratcing my head as to why that bothers you given I chose to model something else. My choice is mine and yours is yours. We are both modeling what we value and our kids know it. How much they take that message to heart will vary with each indivdual.

You know, so many people claim to never watch daytime TV that I have to wonder what the TV execs are thinking even broadcasting during the day. You'd think they'd be smarter than to keep on broadcasting in spite of no one watching.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-26-2011 at 06:44 PM..
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:32 PM
 
Location: here
24,873 posts, read 36,063,700 times
Reputation: 32726
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo61397 View Post
Insulting:
- I chose to work out of the home, because I want to be a good role model for my daughter
- I chose to work out of the home, because I'm educated
- I chose to work out of the home, because I wanted to contribute
- I chose to work out of the home, because I want to show my daughter equality of the sexes
- I chose to stay at home, because I don't want strangers raising my kids
- I chose to stay at home, because it's better for kids to have a mother at home
- I chose to stay at home, because I want to be there for my kids
- I chose to stay at home, because I actually enjoy spending time with my kids

Why? Because you are implying non-verbally that those who don't, don't want those things or don't provide those things.
It absolutely goes both ways!
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:36 PM
 
572 posts, read 1,295,840 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
What, you think everything we learned and fought for has just vanished because we have chosen to spend some time with our children?

You think we all turned into some kind of uneducated doltish subservient unequal wives because we have a child who we'd like to nuture at home, and because we pick them over our careers, at that moment?

You really think, really, that going to work every day is the only way to instill the above values in a kid?

I find it unbelievably insulting, given the range of careers and wonderful lives the women who frequent this board have, that you would be so destitute of awareness as to insinuate that you show your daughters that women's careers are important, as if we don't. Just insulting beyond measure.
THAT ^^^^^

And as a female veteran I find that doubly insulting. My DD tells me she wants to be a therapist or in the military LIKE HER MOMMY. She has never actually seen me in uniform, she has pictures though, she has seen my medals and awards. My husband is in the military, and wears his uniform every day, and she has never said that she wanted to be like her daddy... She has always said, I WANT TO BE LIKE MY MOMMY. If I'm not a positive role model for what my daughter can become, then I don't know who is??? Because she never says she wants to be a stay at home mommy like my mommy.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:39 PM
 
13,233 posts, read 9,839,728 times
Reputation: 14277
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
As the person who posted the actual studies I resent the implication that I have used those studies to state or even imply any of those things.
lkb, nobody's talking about you, unless they're directly quoting you. You've done a good job explaining the studies. It's not you people are upset with.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:40 PM
 
572 posts, read 1,295,840 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
As the person who posted the actual studies I resent the implication that I have used those studies to state or even imply any of those things.

The point of those studies is that neither SAHM or WM needs to be defended, since they both result in the exact same measurable outcomes for children.

As for the fact, that the SAHM as a group have lower education levels, so what? We are not speaking about individuals, but rather groups, and the single best indicator of education level is SES, a one income family by definition is more likely to have less income which is what defines SES. If that does not apply to you, GREAT. It doesn't particularly apply to me either, and I am not twisted out about it.
Well, tell that to your ilk then, you are NOT the only person posting studies and articles.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Chicago's burbs
1,016 posts, read 4,532,476 times
Reputation: 920
You make statements like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I like that my kids see my dh and I as more equal.
And then you wonder why SAHM's become insulted and defensive.

You made different choices and that's fine, but can you not see how your implying that a working father/SAHM family model means Mom is beneath Dad, and how that might come off as just a tad arrogant and possibly put SAHM's on the defense? It is possible to stay at home and raise the kids and run the household, and make just as valuable a contribution as the husband/bread winner.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,431,289 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo61397 View Post
Insulting:
- I chose to work out of the home, because I want to be a good role model for my daughter
- I chose to work out of the home, because I'm educated
- I chose to work out of the home, because I wanted to contribute
- I chose to work out of the home, because I want to show my daughter equality of the sexes
- I chose to stay at home, because I don't want strangers raising my kids
- I chose to stay at home, because it's better for kids to have a mother at home
- I chose to stay at home, because I want to be there for my kids
- I chose to stay at home, because I actually enjoy spending time with my kids

Why? Because you are implying non-verbally that those who don't, don't want those things or don't provide those things.
We all choose to model what we choose to model. You'd think women would be ok with their choices.

I choose to work for the reasons I choose to work. I'm not implying anything. I'm stating why *I* choose to work. They are MY reasons. They don't have to be yours. You have your own reasons for doing what you do. I model what I want my dd's to have modeled for them. I really don't care if someone wants to model traditional gender roles for her kids. I would assume she's as proud as her choice as I am of mine. After all, it is the choice she made.
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