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Old 09-26-2011, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,304 posts, read 17,053,510 times
Reputation: 11752

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbd78 View Post
You make statements like this:

And then you wonder why SAHM's become insulted and defensive.

You made different choices and that's fine, but can you not see how your implying that a working father/SAHM family model means Mom is beneath Dad, and how that might come off as just a tad arrogant and possibly put SAHM's on the defense? It is possible to stay at home and raise the kids and run the household, and make just as valuable a contribution to the household as the husband/bread winner.
Would you like me to change what the studies have found? Do you, seriously, think that kids will see a mom who chose a traditional gender role and a mom who has a career as the same? One is reinforcing stereotypes. The other is breaking them. They are totally different and it should come as no surprise that our children learn different lessons from them.

What I don't get is why women who make these choices aren't ok with them. It's like they want their cake and to eat it too. All the benefits of being a working mom without the actual work. Personally, I see no benefit in being a SAHM, which is why I didn't SAH. I see benefits in being a WM. So I model that for my dd's. If you see benefits in SAH, why not be ok with what YOU CHOSE to model for your kids instead of being offended because someone else gains different advanges with their choice? Every time you choose one thing, you reject another. There's no sense getting your panties in a wad when that is pointed out. You made your choice. Either it was a good one or it wasn't.

 
Old 09-26-2011, 07:57 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 2,984,658 times
Reputation: 7225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
We all choose to model what we choose to model. You'd think women would be ok with their choices.

I choose to work for the reasons I choose to work. I'm not implying anything. I'm stating why *I* choose to work. They are MY reasons. They don't have to be yours. You have your own reasons for doing what you do. I model what I want my dd's to have modeled for them. I really don't care if someone wants to model traditional gender roles for her kids. I would assume she's as proud as her choice as I am of mine. After all, it is the choice she made.
I can only speak for myself, but I am not "modeling traditional gender roles" for my kid.

If you knew anything about me, you would find that particular statement hilarious.

You keep saying we're not proud of the choice we made - what we are, actually, is annoyed - annoyed by your insinuation that we all fell off the turnip truck and went straight into marriage with kids without stopping to gain any insight on how to do anything whatsoever along the way.

And annoyed with your insinuation that by default, our daughters will never learn to do anything other than stay at home with kids, because we never "modeled" anything else. Which is absurd. Totally.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 07:57 PM
 
Location: IL
12,159 posts, read 6,100,680 times
Reputation: 11783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Because a picture is worth a thousand words. We don't just tell our dd's about the careers they could have, we show them the ones we have.
Do you take your children to work with you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
We don't tell them they can balance family and career, we show them how to do it.
You forget, you have posted many complaints about your children on this board before. Be very careful claiming to be the perfect mommy of the perfect children now!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
We don't tell them men and women are equal and then take on traditional gender roles. We demonstrate living more equal roles.
And so do I. I'm not darning socks and baking pot roasts all day. My DH travels A LOT. I can do any repairs around the house or car that he can. I'm a much better shot than he is, and I do all the electronic configurations, and so on, and so forth. You get the idea. Anyone who knows me would not refer to me as a traditional woman. In fact the notion is quite frankly laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
But for all we do, all we're doing is stacking the statistical deck. We can still end up with dd's who don't go to college because they just want to be mommies and stay home just as SAHM's can end up with dd's who are doctors, lawyers and engineers. They'll just have to figure out the juggling act on their own because their mothers didn't show them how to do it but I'm sure they'll figure it out. Women are pretty resilient.
They'll be able to make those choices because of their education and family support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I do have to point out that WM's are involved in school too. You don't have to stay home to be involved in your children's school. In fact, at my dds' elementary school there were more WM volunteers than SAHM volunteers. Working moms are one up in that they already have day care in place for younger siblings so volunteering just requires taking an afternoon vacation from work. Many of the SAHMs had to find a sitter to volunteer. WM's do the same things SAHM's do. As a WM, I read nap time stories at my dd's day care every day, worked the computer lab at the elementary school, at least, once a week (I was the only one who could get the printers to work), I took my dd's to dance lessons, gynmastics and ice skating, I gave presentations on my career,I've chaperoned field trips, worked the lunch room, etc, etc, etc....working really doesn't stop you from doing these things. In fact, given day care is already in place for siblings, it can actually make it easier.
I call bunk on all these statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
You know, so many people claim to never watch daytime TV that I have to wonder what the TV execs are thinking even broadcasting during the day. You'd think they'd be smarter than to keep on broadcasting in spite of no one watching.
Because SAHM's are the only people home during daytime hours? Really? For someone so well educated, that's a very dumb statement.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 07:58 PM
 
573 posts, read 654,455 times
Reputation: 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Would you like me to change what the studies have found? Do you, seriously, think that kids will see a mom who chose a traditional gender role and a mom who has a career as the same? One is reinforcing stereotypes. The other is breaking them. They are totally different and it should come as no surprise that our children learn different lessons from them.

What I don't get is why women who make these choices aren't ok with them. It's like they want their cake and to eat it too. All the benefits of being a working mom without the actual work. Personally, I see no benefit in being a SAHM, which is why I didn't SAH. I see benefits in being a WM. So I model that for my dd's. If you see benefits in SAH, why not be ok with what YOU CHOSE to model for your kids instead of being offended because someone else gains different advanges with their choice? Every time you choose one thing, you reject another. There's no sense getting your panties in a wad when that is pointed out. You made your choice. Either it was a good one or it wasn't.
I'm done with you. You are rude, condescending and not worth my time and energy. I hope you have a nice life.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,459 posts, read 4,069,363 times
Reputation: 3393
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post

Anyway, something not directed at this poster but everyone who is discounting science in general. As a scientist I have had many classes and routinely use statistics in my own research. As a teacher I have had to teach how to interpret statistics. Once you understand how statistics works it is not hard at all to tell when stats have been tweaked to give a certain outcome. While those skewed stats are frequently found in the media, it is rare indeed (again not an absolute here) to have something get through the peer review process and get published in a scientific journal. That is why I posted links to actual studies and limited my sources to those that are freely available. Still people are completely discounting them for conflicting reasons. It boggles my mind. No wonder we are a declining scientific power.
Disagreeing with you and Ivory does not mean a poster is too simple-minded to understand "how statistics works". Nor does questioning the misapplication of a couple of studies equates with insisting Adam rode dinosaurs to the temple.
As for "people are discounting them for conflicting reasons"...you might not have noticed, but those who don't follow you in lockstep are not one monolithic, hydra-headed entity.

Last edited by Aconite; 09-26-2011 at 08:09 PM..
 
Old 09-26-2011, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Chicago's burbs
1,013 posts, read 3,159,549 times
Reputation: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Would you like me to change what the studies have found? Do you, seriously, think that kids will see a mom who chose a traditional gender role and a mom who has a career as the same? One is reinforcing stereotypes. The other is breaking them. They are totally different and it should come as no surprise that our children learn different lessons from them.

What I don't get is why women who make these choices aren't ok with them. It's like they want their cake and to eat it too. All the benefits of being a working mom without the actual work. Personally, I see no benefit in being a SAHM, which is why I didn't SAH. I see benefits in being a WM. So I model that for my dd's. If you see benefits in SAH, why not be ok with what YOU CHOSE to model for your kids instead of being offended because someone else gains different advanges with their choice? Every time you choose one thing, you reject another. There's no sense getting your panties in a wad when that is pointed out. You made your choice. Either it was a good one or it wasn't.
Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if YOU are really happy and confident with your choices, since you feel the need to prove your choices are best by putting down others. If you can't see how implying that a SAHM is beneath Dad who works out of the home is insulting, them I'm pretty much speechless. I can assure you that my DH does see me as his equal and he treats me as such. If your DH feels you need to work out of the home in order to be his equal, then I'm sorry. My being a SAHM while the kids are little was important to both DH and I , and it was a great choice that I don't regret at all. These years my children are little will be gone in a heartbeat. I feel absolutely fortunate that I get to be there for all the milestones and to help them learn in these early years. My career and degree will be there when they are older, but I will never be able to get these formative years back with them. So absoutely, I own my choice and I wouldn't change it for the world. I'm sorry that you are too shortsighted to see that others make different choices then you do, and have valid reasons for doing so.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 08:09 PM
 
9,310 posts, read 5,652,434 times
Reputation: 9332
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo61397 View Post
Well, tell that to your ilk then, you are NOT the only person posting studies and articles.
My ilk? As in the common phrase "can't trust people of that ilk?"

What exactly is my ilk?

What a hypocrite you are, complaining about over-generalizations and then making your own.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 08:16 PM
 
9,310 posts, read 5,652,434 times
Reputation: 9332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
Disagreeing with you and Ivory does not mean a poster is too simple-minded to understand "how statistics works". Nor does questioning the misapplication of a couple of studies equates with insisting Adam rode dinosaurs to the temple.
As for "people are discounting them for conflicting reasons"...you might not have noticed, but those who don't follow you in lockstep are not one monolithic, hydra-headed entity.
Ok, please tell me the flaw in the statistical analysis of the meta study.

And noting the FACT that people have different skills (and statistical analysis IS a skill) is by no mean the same thing as saying someone is simple-minded. The FACT that repairing cars is a skill I do not possess (one which would be useful indeed) does not make me simple minded. The fact that the majority of people in this country have educations which do not include 500 level courses on stat analysis is solely a function of choosing different educations. If you have a degree linguistics you likely have a whole range of skills I do not. Different does not mean one is better than another.

Just because you do not agree with the studies, or me for that matter, does not mean I am evil and talking down to anyone. If you spoke french, and I did not, I would take your skill at face value and assume you could make better translations than I could. It is literally as complicated as that.

And since you discounted the MA based on a single study out of hundreds makes me wonder if you reject ALL science with the same level of reason, hence the YEC comment. Seriously, if you accept other scientific studies why not this one? Because it appears to be solely because you do not like their findings.

Last edited by lkb0714; 09-26-2011 at 08:27 PM..
 
Old 09-26-2011, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,304 posts, read 17,053,510 times
Reputation: 11752
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbd78 View Post
Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if YOU are really happy and confident with your choices, since you feel the need to prove your choices are best by putting down others. If you can't see how implying that a SAHM is beneath Dad who works out of the home is insulting, them I'm pretty much speechless. I can assure you that my DH does see me as his equal and he treats me as such. If your DH feels you need to work out of the home in order to be his equal, then I'm sorry. My being a SAHM while the kids are little was important to both DH and I , and it was a great choice that I don't regret at all. These years my children are little will be gone in a heartbeat. I feel absolutely fortunate that I get to be there for all the milestones and to help them learn in these early years. My career and degree will be there when they are older, but I will never be able to get these formative years back with them. So absoutely, I own my choice and I wouldn't change it for the world. I'm sorry that you are too shortsighted to see that others make different choices then you do, and have valid reasons for doing so.
This is what I don't get. Why is celebrating the reasons for MY choice taken as putting down someone elses choice???? I'm sure SAHM's have their reasons for their choice. I have mine. I just happen to have research to support mine.

And I'm very happy in my choice. People like to debate things they feel strongly about and I feel strongly about my working status and I think there are people out there who might benefit from what I know and my experience. As a mom who chose to work, I did my homework. I know my choice is a good one but there are women who, by circumstance, don't get a choice in the matter who have to work. I post for them. I know all the reasons my choice is good. I see them in my dd's faces. What I don't get is why some SAHM's can't let WM's be happy with the benefits of their choice. What's it to them that I chose to model something different than they did? It makes me wonder if their reasons for their choice pale when stood next to mine.

It is a fact that working or not working by themselves matter little. That's at good fact because it means we get a choice. It is a fact that WM's and SAHM's model different things for their kids. I would assume you choose to model that which you value. I don't value traditional gender roles so I don't model them. If someone else does, that's their choice. I've made mine. I model using my education, being productive, setting high goals and that there is more than enough time to balance family and work. I value these things. I really don't care if someone else values modeling traditional gender roles. That is THEIR choice not mine. What I don't get is why they think they should get the same results I get. The choices are totally different. Of course our children will view us differently. We're modeling different things.

And I just love the YOU MUST BE UNHAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE because you defend it. I posted about studies. Actual studies that found these differences. I did not make this up. I did not claim my choice is better because I feel it in my heart. I posted what research found, which actually makes perfect sense to me given what WM's model for their dd's. I'm not sure how you think I got the studies to say what I say. They're studies. They just reveal what is there. I'm glad they fit with what I think because it shows my thinking is on the right track. I kind of like to think I'm on the right track. The only satisfaction is in knowing I turned out to be right about what I thought being a working mom would model for my dd's. That's kind of cool.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-26-2011 at 08:28 PM..
 
Old 09-26-2011, 08:20 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,061,424 times
Reputation: 9565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
UGH. Why do you find it necessary to justify your choices? I'm puzzled by this.
I don't. I use my experience as example. Why do you?

Quote:
It is because our working status doesn't matter (and I'll take 50 years of research against your claims you're just sure of it because you feel that way ) that we have a choice in this matter.
Research cannot make claims about any individual family. It can only measure trends. I am not interested in trends, in particular.

Quote:
YOU got to CHOOSE. YOU got what you WANTED.
Actually I did not really want it at all. It was the right thing to do.

Quote:
Working status doesn't matter. That's why we get to CHOOSE. It's a good thing it doesn't matter because we wouldn't have a choice if it did.
I am not sure what you are basing this working status does not matter factoid of yours. That research finds no measurable difference in outcomes between 2 income families and one income families does not work as a premis on which to base this conclusion. That there are good and bad parents who have 2 income families and good and bad parents with 1 income parents makes sense to me. But that the package of good parenting can use a stay at home parent to advantage is likewise fairly obvious to me. As part of that package, yah it "matters".
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