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Old 09-26-2011, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Miborn View Post
Choose your way to teach your children that is the choice of each parent but remember it can be harmful to them as they become adults and are no longer minors. I do wonder if the young men who are being abusive to girls in bars (that my sons are defending) are young men who were told it is ok to strike a woman?
My frustration with you at not understanding that people can understand the difference self defense and abuse is beyond frustrating.
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hml1976 View Post
Hmmm. I'm going to go out on a limb here. My 4.5yr old is somewhat naturally inclined toward bullying. Yes, he's only 4.5 so a lot of his behavior "should" improve with age. But right now he's the "alpha dog" in the room. He'd like your kids' toys, he'd like to boss them around, he might push or shove your kid, and he'd like to be their friend...he just doesn't know how.

Now, as his parent we discipline consistently and do our best to try to teach him . We're tough parents and have a very well behaved older child. My husband and I are laid back creative types, not bullies.

You know what would make him behave? If he wasn't always the toughest kid in the room! No one pushes back, no one tells him to buzz off, all they do is whine and tattle. The influence of parents only goes so far, I can't be with him every day at school on the playground, kids need to learn some social consequences for their actions.

The problem of bullying has gotten worse as the majority of kids have become wimps. One well-placed shove and my "wanna be a bully" would be back in line. Please somebody shove him
Kids have become more protected and sheltered. Before when kids were allowed to roam the neighborhoods and grew up with more siblings and cousins, they were exposed socially at younger ages, they had to learn to deal with peers and parents discouraged tattling.

Often the kids can figure it out when very young -- for example if there are 3 kids and one is getting too pushy, the two will pair up and shun him until he straightens up. If the adults don't always interfere, very often the kids will figure it out, sometimes a smaller kids learns a sharp tongue or teaming up but if the adults always interfere, the kids don't get an opportunity to deal with anything and learn to run crying constantly which will not earn them any respect from their peers.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
My frustration with you at not understanding that people can understand the difference self defense and abuse is beyond frustrating.
See that is just it no they cant. Just google domestic violence and bullying yourself.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:52 AM
 
1,469 posts, read 902,270 times
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Originally Posted by Miborn View Post
See that is just it no they cant. Just google domestic violence and bullying yourself.
I'm just curious as to your way of thinking, because there IS a difference between abuse and self defense, even in domestic violence situations.

So if a woman is being being beaten by her husband, he's got his hands around her throat, and there is a baseball bat within her reach, would she be WRONG for picking it up and hitting him with it to STOP him from CHOKING her? Or is she just supposed to lay there and die because it's such a crime to defend yourself?

I'm sorry, but I really can't imagine someone with that way of thinking being an advocate for anyone in a domestic abuse situation.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Kids have become more protected and sheltered. Before when kids were allowed to roam the neighborhoods and grew up with more siblings and cousins, they were exposed socially at younger ages, they had to learn to deal with peers and parents discouraged tattling.
The means of learning to deal with peers was not always learning the best solution. At school, my learning consisted of simply fearing and avoiding the bullies to the point where I was scared of my own shadow.

But one thing that I feel was different then is that kids hung out in multi-aged groups. Sometimes the older kids could show a younger kid the benefit of standing up for themselves.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Kids have become more protected and sheltered. Before when kids were allowed to roam the neighborhoods and grew up with more siblings and cousins, they were exposed socially at younger ages, they had to learn to deal with peers and parents discouraged tattling.

Often the kids can figure it out when very young -- for example if there are 3 kids and one is getting too pushy, the two will pair up and shun him until he straightens up. If the adults don't always interfere, very often the kids will figure it out, sometimes a smaller kids learns a sharp tongue or teaming up but if the adults always interfere, the kids don't get an opportunity to deal with anything and learn to run crying constantly which will not earn them any respect from their peers.
I never "learned to stand up for myself" until I was in late high school. Until then I had anxiety issues, fear, anger and hated going to school even though I loved learning.

We wouldn't expect an adult to put up with this behavior, why do we expect it of children?
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:19 AM
 
8,012 posts, read 3,800,601 times
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Originally Posted by Miborn View Post
See that is just it no they cant. Just google domestic violence and bullying yourself.
Where is self defense part of a domestic violence and bullying discussion?
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
I'm just curious as to your way of thinking, because there IS a difference between abuse and self defense, even in domestic violence situations.

So if a woman is being being beaten by her husband, he's got his hands around her throat, and there is a baseball bat within her reach, would she be WRONG for picking it up and hitting him with it to STOP him from CHOKING her? Or is she just supposed to lay there and die because it's such a crime to defend yourself?

I'm sorry, but I really can't imagine someone with that way of thinking being an advocate for anyone in a domestic abuse situation.
But we are talking about children and forming their mindset for adulthood. You could also write the people who have done the studies and wrote the articles on Bullies becoming abusive and domestic violence and ask them how they have come to these conclusions.
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Miborn View Post
But we are talking about children and forming their mindset for adulthood.
You keep equating bullying and self defense. It takes a child of very limited intelligence to understand the difference between self defense and bullying. Instead you confuse the issue by making it a gender issue.

Is it wrong for a boy to hit another boy in self defense? If not, how is it any different that he might grow up not knowing ... that abuse, assault and violence is wrong?

Because the difference between aggression, bullying, assault and self defense are as clear as the nose one one's face.

I want you to address SELF DEFENSE please. Because no one here has ever advocating that ANY bullying is ok. Well except the one guy who thinks the other kids ought to knock his aggressive kid back a bit.
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:29 PM
 
13,569 posts, read 16,485,105 times
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Originally Posted by Miborn View Post
But we are talking about children and forming their mindset for adulthood. You could also write the people who have done the studies and wrote the articles on Bullies becoming abusive and domestic violence and ask them how they have come to these conclusions.
What mindset are we talking about?

OK, bullies have a propensity to become perpetrators of domestic violence in the future. I think we might also find that there is a correlation between bullies and domestic violence in their homes as they are being raised. Therefore the cycle we are talking about is not bullying begeting domestic violence, but a cycle of domestic violence that causes some kids to be bullies. Obviously violence is an absolute last resort and has little place in the home. No one would argue that.

What people including myself will argue is empowering a child who is the victim of bullying to stand up for themselves phyiscally and verbally. We need to give kids the tools to fight back and not become a victim. If we teach them that passivity and getting help is the only option then they are being raised with the lesson that they are not strong enough to protect themselves and need to rely on stronger parties (parents, teachers, etc.) to defend them. I could argue that this mindset may actually worsen domestic violence because someone who has not been empowered to defend themselves and must rely on others may in turn feel powerless and without hope when they are an adult and confronted with such a situation.

Parents have the two-fold responsiblity of making sure that their kids do not become the bullies while also empowering and arming them to defend themselves against the bullies. Given that I can only control (and even that is limited) what my kids do, I can't simply rely on other parents making sure their kids aren't bullies, so I must equip my child to deal with them.

In that realm there is no such thing as hands off. If a girl is physically assaulting my son, he has a right to defend himself same as if it was a boy. Teaching this lesson does not create the causation that you are implying. Teaching someone to defend themselves against an attacker, even if they are female, does in no way condone domestic violence or makes someone more likely to commit it.

As a domestic violence advocate, I would hope you would realize that it is a cyclical and often deep-rooted issue within families. My son knowing that he can punch a girl who is attacking him in the mouth will not make him more likely to commit domestic violence. Similarly, teaching him that it is OK to fight back will not make him a bully.
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