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Old 10-16-2011, 04:26 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,191 posts, read 2,329,433 times
Reputation: 2408

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No, I've read opposing views as well. I'm fully aware that people tend to see what they want to see and went out of my way to avoid that trap. If you look at the longitudinal studies, you will see they either support working or support working having no ill effect, which is a support of working because working impacts SES and SES does have an impact.

The focus on SAH/WOH is an example of people seeing what they want to see. Some people want it to matter but it doesn't. It's a small decision not a big one. If you start listing all the things that we know matter WRT how children turn out how far down the list do you have to go to get to maternal working status and how small are the impacts of maternal working status compared to the other things that impact how our kids turn out???

We know SES matters. SES matters enough that just about every study out there corrects for it (and it's higher for WM's so those who are trying to prove SAH is better make darned sure it's corrected for). SES impacts quality of education, quality of health care, quality of diet, teen pregnancy rates, teen drug use rates, teen crime rates, ... the list goes on and on...yet we don't see a great debate on improving your child's SES to improve out comes...

I'll add maternal sensitivity here, even though it's not debatable beause it's not something we can choose, because the few studies that have tried to claim SAH is better turned out to not have controlled for maternal sensitivity. This isn't one we can debate. You either have a sensitive mother or you don't and it has nothing to do with other factors that impact kids but it matters and studies need to correct for it.

Having an educated mother matters. Maternal education is one of the stronger predictors of how children turn out. Children of educated mothers fare better in many areas even when SES is controlled for. They're better prepared for school, do better in school and go farther in school....yet we don't see a great debate on the benefits of mom getting a higher education before she has kids... (The correlation is to maternal education at the time of birth. Getting an education later does not seem to matter.)

Having a two parent household matters. Having a father in the household has a positive impact on both boys and girls. An involved father reduces teen pregnancy rates and teen drug use rates. Here we do see some debate on parents staying together but it's met with a weak counter arument about children needing to see their parents in loving relationships which, they, apparently don't because we don't see worse results for kids whose parents stay together (another example of people ignoring the reseach because they want what they want.)

Demographics plays a big part in how kids turn out. Where you live determines who your children hang out with and their values will reflect the values of their peers. By the teen years, peers have a stronger influence than parents. Yet, we don't see a great debate on the merits of picking the right neighborhood to raise your children in...

Other things that we know matter are quality of parenting (debatable only in definition of good parenting), going to church on a regular basis, again, no debate here.....even things like eating dinner as a family every night and putting your child in early piano lessons (before the age of 5) have more impact than whether or not mom works.

Now, let's get to moms working stutus. An area we've spent 40+ years and who knows how much money studying and all we have is one study that says there's this small thing we can measure that is different or that small thing we can measure that is different and ask yourself WHY are we so focused on mom's working status when there are so many other things that actually matter and do more than make a small difference it takes a huge study to find because it's so small we won't see it if we don't study it????

The fact is, if you are focusing on SAH being better, YOU are guilty of seeing what you want to see. Try looking at the things that really matter. Seriously, you should attain those before you start debating SAH/WOH.

Given all the things that matter more than SAH/WOH I have to wonder why people are still trying to claim SAH is better when things like SES, maternal education and demographics aren't debated when they have a proven impact??? How come no one stands up and says that mothers need to improve their children's SES??? Yet, they'll stand up and say we should SAH, which has the potential to reduce SES??? Why are we sweating the small stuff instead of doing the things we know will matter like keeping families togehter, raising SES, getting an education before we have kids and raising our kids in better neighborhoods??? Why focus so intently on what is really a small decision if you disregard the financial impact ( which makes it simply a financial decision)?

Seriously, finances aside, SAH/WOH is a very small decision beause it results in very small differences if any at all. There are bigger fish to fry when it comes to our kids and the impact of SAH/WOH pales in comparison to them IF it has any impact at all and after 40+ years studying this, the jury is still out. What does that tell you about SAH/WOH??? It didn't take 40 years to determine that SES matters, or maternal education matters, or intact families matter, or demographics matters or even that eating dinner together as a family every night matters. So why are we even debating this? Do you really not even realize that this debate has nothing to do with our children? It has to do with how society sees women. They've done a great job of getting us to focus on something that doesn't matter so that we're distracted enough not to see what is really going on. We're being manipulated here. I'm not 100% on the ulterior motive but I'm sure we're being manipulated. I can't come up with a reason for the rediculous amount of money and time spent studying SAH/WOH given the absolute lack of evidence that it really matters in the long run, especially, when compared to the things we know matter. It makes no sense to get hung up here.

Unfortunately, we'll continue to waste time and money on this topic because there is a faction that just has to believe that SAH is better. I'm not sure why they are so desperate to hang on to that idea. There are other things to take care of before this one even comes into the picture. By far, the biggest impact of SAH/WOH is the financial one. Everything else pales against that because it's small stuff. It's just a financial decision people. Make the one that gives your family the best SES and move on....Things don't matter just because you want them to matter. Seriously, how many more years of studies finding this small difference or that small differnce for each side do you need before you accept that, aside from the financial aspects, this is a decision that just does not matter??? Why is THIS decision worth the money and time we've spent studying it? Don't we have better things to do with that time and money like feed kids living in poverty or educating parents?

Sorry for the novel but there's just no short way to say this....
Let me narrow down this exchage we have had so far. YOU are handling it from the standpoint of WM vs SAHM as far as I see.

Did I not state before I am pointing on a correlation and I am not talking about WM, SAHM, working couples, single parents, etc? Yes I have but you have stubbornly keep concentrating on some type of us against them.

Did I not cite examples, good and bad, on SAHMs, WMs, single parents, working couples? Yes I have to show that correlation is there. Your response, you seem to be like an automaton repeating the same about longitudinal studies. Actually, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your zeal narrow focus to prove your point. How? By in a previous message stating that you are not aware of other research and site that there was one disproved and now above you state as you have seen opposing views which often show their own research.

I believe we have gone far enough in this exchange because you will keep pushing the WM vs SAHM agenda you have. I do not have one and I am not going to allow you to keep pulling me into yours. You want to keep looking into surveys and researchs and keep what you seem to only keep accepting as valid result the ones that support your views, be my guest.

You know what you remind me of? Two examples I experienced. The first one is when I used to work in construction in the mid 60s. In one instance we needed to locate the base of a column based on a point on the ceiling. The engineer wanted to get a plumb bob to find it but no one had one at the moment and the engineer look lost on what to do. A bricklayer got a rock, went up the ladder, placed the rock at the point on the ceiling and let go of the rock. Once it hit the floor he said "there is the spot". The engineer still did not want to believe that was the right spot, left and came back with a plumb bob. The results? The same spot where the bricklayer said. Sometimes people get stuck with education that they forget that there is a lot more than knowledge you get in schools.
The second example was when I was in Desert Storm in 91'. I was an electrician working on restoring power plants after hostilites ended. A captain that was an engineer and another electronics techincian and I needed to figure out the power need of power plant we needed to install. I am one that always try to do things the least complicated way. I made my calculations and gave the equipment needed to meet the power demands. He and the electronics technicians questioned how I came up with the results. I showed them my method. Well, no that can't be because I did not use the algebraic/trigonomcetric formulas they use in college. I told them how I simplified the formulas to basic math and still come up with the answer. No, they were also stuck in only accepting an answer they got in school. They spent time out there looking for some electrical/electronics book to get the power requirements. The resuts? The same as mine! I told them there is more than one way to skin a cat an it helps when you are open minded to other ways of finding answers.

Now, you like an automaton seem to keep looking in front of you without looking around and only see what only agrees with your ways and keep answering writing message without noticing what I was saying, not WM vs SAHM for sure.
I have no problems with surveys and researchs out there. They are good and in many cases it is good to compare them with each other to come up with the best conclusion possible. People doing research are also trapped on their own biases and those studies can be done to snhow what the researchers want you to see. That is why it is good to campare as many of them as possible.
Lastly, it is also good to go out there where the rubber meets the road and see how much of all those studies supports what is out there. That is why I recommend you go out there and talk to police officers and ask them what they see as common denominators when they go to homes to attend to cases. Go out there and talk to social workers at local counties, and also the ones that work at child protective services and see what they tell you. Go and volunteer and talk to teachers regarding the children that do good and the ones that do bad. Do not go that far and read some of the threads in City-Data that talk about asian parents and how well they compare to other groups and how much time they spend with their kids.
So just as in the examples, do not get stuck on longitudinal resuts of studies like an automaton. There is more to it than that as I said. Take care.

 
Old 10-16-2011, 04:45 PM
 
10,153 posts, read 11,582,607 times
Reputation: 9242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
Ahhh.....there's the rub. This fact has been bothering me, and you demonstrated it so clearly with this post. What you continually describe as SAHM is housekeeping. I'm sorry, but running the vacuum and folding laundry has very little to with raising children.
EXACTLY! My husband asked me to SAH and he never ever ever ever ever stated that he wanted me to SAH so that I could clean the house and do his laundry. He knows how to do those things himself.

Being AH creates time to be a parent in part by moving the daily housekeeping tasks to a time when the kids are busy at school. It also creates family time because the weekend and afterschool hours are open for the kids and family.

I do not know anyone who decided to SAH so they can scrub the toilet.
 
Old 10-16-2011, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,342 posts, read 17,107,146 times
Reputation: 11761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
EXACTLY! My husband asked me to SAH and he never ever ever ever ever stated that he wanted me to SAH so that I could clean the house and do his laundry. He knows how to do those things himself.

Being AH creates time to be a parent in part by moving the daily housekeeping tasks to a time when the kids are busy at school. It also creates family time because the weekend and afterschool hours are open for the kids and family.

I do not know anyone who decided to SAH so they can scrub the toilet.
As I said, housekeeping is a duty we have to take care of when home. It's not the only thing we do at home by far. There isn't enough of it to fill the time we're home. It's just one thing to check off and a common complaint amoung moms who try to do it with children under foot. Getting up two hours before they do works quite well then you have the rest of the day for whatever you want.
 
Old 10-16-2011, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,342 posts, read 17,107,146 times
Reputation: 11761
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Let me narrow down this exchage we have had so far. YOU are handling it from the standpoint of WM vs SAHM as far as I see.

Did I not state before I am pointing on a correlation and I am not talking about WM, SAHM, working couples, single parents, etc? Yes I have but you have stubbornly keep concentrating on some type of us against them.

Did I not cite examples, good and bad, on SAHMs, WMs, single parents, working couples? Yes I have to show that correlation is there. Your response, you seem to be like an automaton repeating the same about longitudinal studies. Actually, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your zeal narrow focus to prove your point. How? By in a previous message stating that you are not aware of other research and site that there was one disproved and now above you state as you have seen opposing views which often show their own research.

I believe we have gone far enough in this exchange because you will keep pushing the WM vs SAHM agenda you have. I do not have one and I am not going to allow you to keep pulling me into yours. You want to keep looking into surveys and researchs and keep what you seem to only keep accepting as valid result the ones that support your views, be my guest.

You know what you remind me of? Two examples I experienced. The first one is when I used to work in construction in the mid 60s. In one instance we needed to locate the base of a column based on a point on the ceiling. The engineer wanted to get a plumb bob to find it but no one had one at the moment and the engineer look lost on what to do. A bricklayer got a rock, went up the ladder, placed the rock at the point on the ceiling and let go of the rock. Once it hit the floor he said "there is the spot". The engineer still did not want to believe that was the right spot, left and came back with a plumb bob. The results? The same spot where the bricklayer said. Sometimes people get stuck with education that they forget that there is a lot more than knowledge you get in schools.
The second example was when I was in Desert Storm in 91'. I was an electrician working on restoring power plants after hostilites ended. A captain that was an engineer and another electronics techincian and I needed to figure out the power need of power plant we needed to install. I am one that always try to do things the least complicated way. I made my calculations and gave the equipment needed to meet the power demands. He and the electronics technicians questioned how I came up with the results. I showed them my method. Well, no that can't be because I did not use the algebraic/trigonomcetric formulas they use in college. I told them how I simplified the formulas to basic math and still come up with the answer. No, they were also stuck in only accepting an answer they got in school. They spent time out there looking for some electrical/electronics book to get the power requirements. The resuts? The same as mine! I told them there is more than one way to skin a cat an it helps when you are open minded to other ways of finding answers.

Now, you like an automaton seem to keep looking in front of you without looking around and only see what only agrees with your ways and keep answering writing message without noticing what I was saying, not WM vs SAHM for sure.
I have no problems with surveys and researchs out there. They are good and in many cases it is good to compare them with each other to come up with the best conclusion possible. People doing research are also trapped on their own biases and those studies can be done to snhow what the researchers want you to see. That is why it is good to campare as many of them as possible.
Lastly, it is also good to go out there where the rubber meets the road and see how much of all those studies supports what is out there. That is why I recommend you go out there and talk to police officers and ask them what they see as common denominators when they go to homes to attend to cases. Go out there and talk to social workers at local counties, and also the ones that work at child protective services and see what they tell you. Go and volunteer and talk to teachers regarding the children that do good and the ones that do bad. Do not go that far and read some of the threads in City-Data that talk about asian parents and how well they compare to other groups and how much time they spend with their kids.
So just as in the examples, do not get stuck on longitudinal resuts of studies like an automaton. There is more to it than that as I said. Take care.
No, I'm not the one ignoring what's around me. I'm the one seeing it. You can say that until you're blue in the fact but that won't make it true. But I'm not going down this path again.... I've said my piece and no one seems to be able to counter my actual argument.
 
Old 10-16-2011, 06:21 PM
 
Location: here
17,030 posts, read 14,571,193 times
Reputation: 13929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No, I'm not the one ignoring what's around me. I'm the one seeing it. You can say that until you're blue in the fact but that won't make it true. But I'm not going down this path again.... I've said my piece and no one seems to be able to counter my actual argument.
your argument has been countered several times. you have a correlation, not a cause and effect. And, in your personal case, you working raises your SES. Fine. Several of us have pointed out that working would not increase our SES. We're solidly middle, and will never really be upper-middle, and most likely never be lower-middle either. So your argument may apply to you, but it does not apply to everyone. Without an increase in SES, you said yourself that "SAH or working doesn't matter."
 
Old 10-16-2011, 06:21 PM
 
573 posts, read 655,796 times
Reputation: 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No, I'm not the one ignoring what's around me. I'm the one seeing it. You can say that until you're blue in the fact but that won't make it true. But I'm not going down this path again.... I've said my piece and no one seems to be able to counter my actual argument.
I find that utterly ironic...
 
Old 10-16-2011, 06:35 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 3,096,605 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
As I said, housekeeping is a duty we have to take care of when home. It's not the only thing we do at home by far. There isn't enough of it to fill the time we're home. It's just one thing to check off and a common complaint amoung moms who try to do it with children under foot. Getting up two hours before they do works quite well then you have the rest of the day for whatever you want.
For me, getting up 2 hours early would mean going through life in a state of chronic sleep deprivation. Thanks but no thanks.
 
Old 10-16-2011, 06:46 PM
 
573 posts, read 655,796 times
Reputation: 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
For me, getting up 2 hours early would mean going through life in a state of chronic sleep deprivation. Thanks but no thanks.
4 AM. Sounds like a BLAST. Sign me up for that . I go from 6 AM to 8:30 PM nearly every day. If I got up any earlier I would not be able to function at 3PM.
 
Old 10-16-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,191 posts, read 2,329,433 times
Reputation: 2408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No, I'm not the one ignoring what's around me. I'm the one seeing it. You can say that until you're blue in the fact but that won't make it true. But I'm not going down this path again.... I've said my piece and no one seems to be able to counter my actual argument.
No one is able to counter my actual argument? Pretty much the majority here are telling you something you simply do not want to hear and only think you are correct and no one has the ability to counter your point.
Actually, to reiterate, I never was out here to prove WM vs SAHM, you are the one pushing the issue since the moment you replied to me the very first time. So all your arguments have no relevance because I never have been trying prove that. I am talking oranges and you are talking apples. That is what your tunnel vision has not allowed you to see in the exchange. Take care.
 
Old 10-16-2011, 08:42 PM
 
10,153 posts, read 11,582,607 times
Reputation: 9242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
As I said, housekeeping is a duty we have to take care of when home. It's not the only thing we do at home by far. There isn't enough of it to fill the time we're home. It's just one thing to check off and a common complaint amoung moms who try to do it with children under foot. Getting up two hours before they do works quite well then you have the rest of the day for whatever you want.
But you are discussing housekeeping as if it is the only difference between SAH and WOH. It isn't really a big factor for most people, except that being home allows the housekeeping to be shifted to midweek, allowing more time on the weekends for the family to be together.

I don't know anyone who gets up at 4AM to clean their house whether they work or not.
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