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Old 11-16-2011, 09:55 AM
 
5,019 posts, read 9,268,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
If I showed up at your house tomorrow with a camera crew and checkbook and offered you $400k a year to tape your life, what would you do? If $400k wasn't enough, what's your price?
I'd consider renting out my house as a set for $400K.

Not my child though. She's not for rent.
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:59 AM
Status: "God was not in Stalingrad." (set 7 days ago)
 
13,692 posts, read 17,705,108 times
Reputation: 11886
Quote:
Morality is not a code. It is a judgement. So THEIR morality. Reason, judgement.
Morality is a code, decided upon by the members of a given society. This all goes back to the concept of relativity, EVERYTHING is based upon ones perspective.

The secular definition of morality would be: Man decides what is right or wrong. What is wrong or right simply depends upon the society you live in. Conflicts can occur when societies collide that have different notions of right and wrong.

One of the easiest and most used examples is cannibalism. Perfectly acceptable and moral in some societies, but absolutely wrong and reprehensible in others. Hence, morality is a construct of society, not necessarily an innate sense. We teach our children what our accpeted morality is. Religion itself is not morality, just a codification of a society's moral beliefs with a healthy dose of eternal damnation for violating it.

Quote:
Well they go to the Lutheran church with their Grandmother. They go to the Catholic church with their other Grandmother. When I went to the Buddhist temple, I did offer. But they are still too young to understand. To them it is just a requirement to sit still.

When we discuss things, we don't answer questions with this is how things are. We answer questions with some people beleive and what do you think? My 8yo daughter asked me the other day where god lives. We talked a bit about what many christians believe. We tried to google Muslim beliefs but found nothing that interested her. When we studied China, we did quite a segment on the various Chinese faiths.

It is not perfect. But who is?
Ah, so you are providing them with a broad base of beliefs. Is this not "foisting" something upon them. Did your children suddenly wake up one morning and ask to go to church with grandmom or did grandmom just take them?

Quote:
Why would I be disappointed with that?
You wouldn't be disappointed, even in the slightest, if your children chose to embrace a belief system that is the complete opposite of yours?

My point here was not to dissect your personal beliefs, just prove the point that we all raise our children within our value and belief system, even if we don't necessarily have one.

Quote:
Ones in which children are not neglected. One in which people are not hurt. I am about objective outcomes. The Jones people had a belief system. AAdn the outcome was that people were lead to mass suicide. Some people were murdered. Oh that is not a belief system, that is a cult. Based on... the outcome.
It is a very difficult question. If you were an adamant follower of Jones, then by committing suicide you reached a greater state of being, or at least that's what you thought. Objectively, to them, it was a totally reasonable and logical thing to do. The rest of us can only assume that they didn't get the result they were expecting.

As long as the belief system in question does not violate the common law of the society, that establishes societies base morality and values, then it should be entirely up to the adherents for what they believe and choose to do with their lives based on that belief.

Quote:
Are you inferring that because I don't judge the merit the same as someone else does that I don't think that they should have the right to do as they see fit? Quite the contrary. No matter what I think of someone else' religion, I would fight with all my small political clout to protect their right to it so long as they are not infringing on someone else' rights.
You implied with your statement that there was a system wherein certain beliefs were greater than others. I'm guessing that "system" was your own personal merit scale. If that is not what you meant, than I have no argument.

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Is there some harm in having an opinion? Whom am I hurting? What is respect? Do they post on Christian internet boards about how non Christians are all hell bound? I have no idea. Nor do I care. And if they did, I sure would not consider it disrespectful.
There is no harm in having an opinion. I just see a legion of people attacking them based on their beliefs and I don't feel it is justified. Feel free to have opinions all you want, I have the freedom to defend them and criticize your critique.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:00 AM
 
22,288 posts, read 13,146,323 times
Reputation: 23871
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I guss it makes me a little twitchy that you WOULDN'T judge a belief system just because it is a belief system. That is kind of what I mean when I say this culture reveres religion. And that is how Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple got away with mass suicide and murder.
OK - This is a fuller explanation and now I know what you meant. Sorry I wasn't understanding you. With this explanation, yes, I do judge and there are a couple on my list.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:04 AM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,103,590 times
Reputation: 9568
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Morality is a code, decided upon by the members of a given society. This all goes back to the concept of relativity, EVERYTHING is based upon ones perspective.
I completely disagree with this.
Quote:
You wouldn't be disappointed, even in the slightest, if your children chose to embrace a belief system that is the complete opposite of yours?
How would them becoming a born again Christian be completely opposite to my belief system? That god exists is one of the least important questions in my entire life. If they want to believe in god, they should just Rock On.

Quote:
As long as the belief system in question does not violate the common law of the society, that establishes societies base morality and values, then it should be entirely up to the adherents for what they believe and choose to do with their lives based on that belief.
I agree.


Quote:
You implied with your statement that there was a system wherein certain beliefs were greater than others. I'm guessing that "system" was your own personal merit scale.
Of course. For whom else am I the judge?

Quote:
There is no harm in having an opinion. I just see a legion of people attacking them based on their beliefs and I don't feel it is justified.
The vast majority of these legions are not attacking them for their beliefs but disagreeing with their parenting. Which is what this board is about. Discussing parenting.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:04 AM
Status: "God was not in Stalingrad." (set 7 days ago)
 
13,692 posts, read 17,705,108 times
Reputation: 11886
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
You assume everyone has a price.
Everyone does have a price and it isn't always expressed in a monetary value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaidmom View Post
I'd consider renting out my house as a set for $400K.

Not my child though. She's not for rent.
You say that now, but like I said above, everyone has a price. You have the pleasure of saying what you are saying now to prove your point, because you are not faced with the actual decision. It is not a reality, so you can "stick to your guns" over the issue.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:10 AM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,103,590 times
Reputation: 9568
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Everyone does have a price and it isn't always expressed in a monetary value.



You say that now, but like I said above, everyone has a price. You have the pleasure of saying what you are saying now to prove your point, because you are not faced with the actual decision. It is not a reality, so you can "stick to your guns" over the issue.

This is an interesting debate conundrum since neither party can definitively demonstrate rightness. You have no more ability to definitively claim the existence of a price at which one can be bought than anyone can claim there is none.

I can state with some confidence that there is no price or receipt of goods or services which would cause me to put my children on a reality tv show.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:11 AM
 
5,019 posts, read 9,268,091 times
Reputation: 6757
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
You say that now, but like I said above, everyone has a price. You have the pleasure of saying what you are saying now to prove your point, because you are not faced with the actual decision. It is not a reality, so you can "stick to your guns" over the issue.
Why ask a question if you don't want an honest and thoughtful answer? .

Here's one for you:

So why do you suppose the Duggars decided to put their children through this stress (for multiple years now) if they don't need the money?
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:11 AM
Status: "God was not in Stalingrad." (set 7 days ago)
 
13,692 posts, read 17,705,108 times
Reputation: 11886
Quote:
I completely disagree with this.
Then how do you explain the varying morality of societies, if morality is a human universal? Perhaps, some morality is, but certainly not all that we consider moral is a universally shared belief.

Quote:
How would them becoming a born again Christian be completely opposite to my belief system? That god exists is one of the least important questions in my entire life. If they want to believe in god, they should just Rock On.
Great for you, your kids are lucky.

Quote:
Of course. For whom else am I the judge?
I agree with what you are saying after reading your response to Dew. Your original statement left the implication that it was more of a societal absolute than a personal conviction. I judge things for myself as well and their are beliefs that I strongly disagree with.

Quote:
The vast majority of these legions are not attacking them for their beliefs but disagreeing with their parenting. Which is what this board is about. Discussing parenting.
...and my point was that parenting involves raising your child within your own morals, beliefs and values system, so attacking them for their "parenting decisions", especially given the decisions that are being criticized, is akin to attacking their beliefs. This is what sparked our discussion. You seem to believe that you do not parent this way, but you do, you really do, we ALL do.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:15 AM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,103,590 times
Reputation: 9568
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Then how do you explain the varying morality of societies, if morality is a human universal? Perhaps, some morality is, but certainly not all that we consider moral is a universally shared belief.
Human error.
Quote:
I agree with what you are saying after reading your response to Dew. Your original statement left the implication that it was more of a societal absolute than a personal conviction. I judge things for myself as well and their are beliefs that I strongly disagree with.
Nope. You inferred something that I did not say. I judge for me and no one else.

Quote:
...and my point was that parenting involves raising your child within your own morals, beliefs and values system, so attacking them for their "parenting decisions", especially given the decisions that are being criticized, is akin to attacking their beliefs.
I don't agree with that at all. The WHY they do something is irrelevant to whether or not it is a good thing to do.

Quote:
This is what sparked our discussion. You seem to believe that you do not parent this way, but you do, you really do, we ALL do.
So you say. If you want to think that, be my guest.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:23 AM
Status: "God was not in Stalingrad." (set 7 days ago)
 
13,692 posts, read 17,705,108 times
Reputation: 11886
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
This is an interesting debate conundrum since neither party can definitively demonstrate rightness. You have no more ability to definitively claim the existence of a price at which one can be bought than anyone can claim there is none.

I can state with some confidence that there is no price or receipt of goods or services which would cause me to put my children on a reality tv show.
It is a conundrum and why I brought it up. The difficulty with it is that most would accept that the general situation is so far removed from reality (doing X for Y amount of money) that it is impossible to truthfully answer. Basically you can't answer it truthfully until you are faced with the reality of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaidmom View Post
Why ask a question if you don't want an honest and thoughtful answer? .

Here's one for you:

So why do you suppose the Duggars decided to put their children through this stress (for multiple years now) if they don't need the money?
I don't think it is a question of "need" in that they "need" the show in order to support themselves. However, I am pretty sure that they don't mind the extra money. I have seen some sources quote that Jim Bob earns around $200k a year not counting any money from the show. Easily enough to support his family in Arkansas, all 20+ of them, especially considering he has no debt. They are not akin to a Jon and Kate whose lives were a fictional creation of the TV show and EVERYTHING they had was from the show. If the show went away tomorrow, I don't think the Duggar's would change.

As for why they do they show, I believe they say that they embraced it as an opportunity to show people how they choose to live their life and they hope that it may serve as an example or inspiration for others. I suppose it is their way of preaching by example.
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