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Old 12-26-2011, 05:30 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,437 posts, read 41,696,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
There comes a point when you must let your children's work stand on it's own and get the grade it, truely, deserves.
OK so I was gonna ask surely this help-or don't help is relative to the age of the child. I have a struggling 3rd grader and a brilliant 4th grader. I find with the struggling student she is always in a hurry and not yet really responsible. I certainly don't do her work but I do ask her to recheck her work before she gives it to me to check. If I see something wrong I simply say "Look into this better and I will help if you really need it". The genius kid doesn't even want me to see her homework and has to really be in trouble to ask for help.
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Old 12-26-2011, 07:25 AM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,950,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Telling them, "There is an error in paragraph four." is helping them to become better proof readers. Correcting the error for them doesn't.
How about if they notice it on their own, they get some small reward (if only verbal praise - because they DID do a "good job" for noticing it) and if you have to point it out, then you can either give them constructrive criticism or nothing at all?

I think, honestly, unless you are PHYSICALLY correcting the error for them, they're going to learn. It's the whole reason kids are required to write things so often in school: the very act of writing something helps you remember it.

I mentioned these contingencies I had posted earlier because I really think you should acknowledge that, even if a parent WERE to do it your way 100%, some teachers may drop the ball on their end and it's only the kid who pays for it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Teachers are not always going to catch and critique every mistake, especially regarding book reports and the like. Even if they notice 10 mistakes on a three-page report, they may feel that going over each is either a waste of time, unnecessary, or likely to overload/dishearten the student. These are just things a parent should consider, that teachers are only human.

But, if you correct what you find and your kid turns the paper in, you may get lucky and the teacher will STILL find something to critique (as they should, no matter how good a paper is), something they wouldn't have seen or mentioned otherwise. Because you can never know EVERYTHING, you should learn something new at every opportunity, not just when you're interacting with a teacher.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,736,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
How about if they notice it on their own, they get some small reward (if only verbal praise - because they DID do a "good job" for noticing it) and if you have to point it out, then you can either give them constructrive criticism or nothing at all?

I think, honestly, unless you are PHYSICALLY correcting the error for them, they're going to learn. It's the whole reason kids are required to write things so often in school: the very act of writing something helps you remember it.

I mentioned these contingencies I had posted earlier because I really think you should acknowledge that, even if a parent WERE to do it your way 100%, some teachers may drop the ball on their end and it's only the kid who pays for it...
The point, that is going right over your head, is they learn MORE by correcting it themselves or living with the consequences of not correcting it than they ever could by you correcting it for them. And no, you don't praise them for correcting their own error. A better grade is the reward for doing so. Sadly, too many parents are making sure their child gets the better grade when it's not deserved.

The only way the teacher drops the ball is if she fails to take points off for the mistake.

Kids deserve the right to earn their grades. Mommy making sure they get a better grade teaches them nothing other than it's mommy's job to make sure they get a better grade. I deal with these kids every single day. You should see the looks on their faces when they ask me to pre-read their work and give them feedback when I ask "Would you like me to grade this now???". They want someone else to get the points for them. They want a better grade than their work deserves. I won't rob them of the opportunity to learn by getting the grade they deserve for THEIR work.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,676,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick View Post
My parents reviewed my homework. If there were mistakes, they'd say, "AnonChild, there is a mistake here, here, and there. The rest looks great." If I knew there were mistakes, I wouldn't have made them. And so - they pointed out where mine were. And it was up to me to fix them, or to ask for help if I didn't understand why they were mistakes.

It was up to them, to encourage me, and support me, and to assist me in learning whatever I was supposed to learn.
I believe that your parents were very wise, Anon. You don't correct your kids' papers or do re-writes on them, IMHO, you simply point out errors and explain what's wrong. Sadly, I have seen writing skills decline severely in students and I firmly believe it has a lot to do with parents not taking an active stance in their children's educations. These are OUR kids!

It blows me away when I meet parents whose children enroll in college, are placed in high school level English classes, then scream because they don't understand why their child's time was wasted in high school English.

I have heard statements such as, "What a crock! My child wouldn't have gotten A's & B's in high school English, if they hadn't been good writers!" Many of those parents never even LOOKED at their children's work. Hey, many of those parents can't write above 5th grade level, either!

At the very least, parents should have their children read their papers out loud to them. It's one thing to proofread their papers, by quickly scanning over them. It's a different story when you instruct them to read to you exactly what's on the paper, "Don't fix things as you go. Read this paper to me, just as if it was someone else's paper. If you get to something that doesn't look or sound right, we can discuss it."

Reading out loud can be an amazingly effective tool in helping your child find their own errors. Many a time, in our proofreading sessions, a child would discover monstrous run-on sentences. In their private proofreading time, they'd looked right over those sentences. However, while reading it out loud, they'd be reading, then actually stop themselves where the natural end of the sentence should be and say, "Oh...shoot, there should be a period there! (blah, blah, blah...then) OH man, there should be one there too!" Armed with a pencil, they'd go through and make their own corrections. By reading out loud, to someone else, they were able to see more clearly, all on their own, just where those mistakes and their weaknesses were.

Not only does this give you a chance to chuckle with your kids, spend one on one time with your kids, but it also lets them know that you really care about them. Ivory, you said that YOU are not allowed to deduct points from your students' papers, for grammatical, punctuation and spelling errors, because it's not an English class. Children forget many of those rules once they get into high school. It's not exactly the most "interesting" subject for the majority of children and is soon tossed by the wayside. Any time a parent can reinforce the importance of excellent writing skills and help our children revisit those rules, we're helping our children to become more confident, successful writers.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:22 AM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,368,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Not only does this give you a chance to chuckle with your kids, spend one on one time with your kids, but it also lets them know that you really care about them.
Lot's of great points in your post, Mel, and I thought this was especially important.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:35 AM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,950,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The point, that is going right over your head, is they learn MORE by correcting it themselves or living with the consequences of not correcting it than they ever could by you correcting it for them. And no, you don't praise them for correcting their own error. A better grade is the reward for doing so. Sadly, too many parents are making sure their child gets the better grade when it's not deserved.
That first sentence is speculation. It's not a point "going over my head"; I understood exactly what your OPINION was on the subject when you first started giving it. I happen to think they learn more if they're TAUGHT more, and more often than once a day (as would be the case if I raised my son according to your advice). I do not believe "pain" is the only way to teach a child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The only way the teacher drops the ball is if she fails to take points off for the mistake.
Or in the ways I mentioned and then RE-mentioned in my last post, which you have not addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Kids deserve the right to earn their grades. Mommy making sure they get a better grade teaches them nothing other than it's mommy's job to make sure they get a better grade. I deal with these kids every single day. You should see the looks on their faces when they ask me to pre-read their work and give them feedback when I ask "Would you like me to grade this now???". They want someone else to get the points for them. They want a better grade than their work deserves. I won't rob them of the opportunity to learn by getting the grade they deserve for THEIR work.
One could argue that you're doing just that simply by telling them "There's an error in paragraph four". I mean, a true, hardcore subscriber to your theory here wouldn't give them ANY assistance. After all, that forces them even more to accept responsibility for their own work.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:47 AM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,368,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
If you're always fixing it, at the last minute, you only teach them that you will fix it at the last minute. Seriously, parents, it's ok if your child gets a C on a paper and they will learn more from that C than you could ever teach them by proofing their papers for them.
You know, parents aren't always "fixing it". Sometimes parents are actually helping the child grasp the subject.

If my child came home from school and said, "I have homework on X but I still don't understand how X works" I am NOT going to say to him, "Do what you can and turn it in." I was going to sit down with him and say, "Let's go over it together and see if you can figure it out." Then I let him do his homework. If he had questions he was free to ask me, my DH or an older brother for help in understanding things.

I have NO problems with parents who help supplement classroom learning. None. Seriously.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,676,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Lot's of great points in your post, Mel, and I thought this was especially important.
Thanks Dew! I never allowed those proofreading sessions to turn into "put down" or "feel bad", events. They were helpful, fun and quite often, funnier than heck times! LOL When your child reads a sentence to you and catches a really big error, then says, "Oh DUH...that sounds STUPID!" It's fun and funnier than heck! Sure, it ends up being comical, but more important, it's another opportunity to spend that time with your child. Once I started doing this with my kids, their "fear" of writing diminished.

In today's texting, FB-ing and emailing world, our kids have lost a great deal of the really important information that their early grammar education provided them. Today's kids also use so much slang when talking with each other, that putting something on paper, coherently, is a tough task...after all, proper English sounds so "grown up" and "stiff".
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,676,318 times
Reputation: 19413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
That first sentence is speculation. It's not a point "going over my head"; I understood exactly what your OPINION was on the subject when you first started giving it. I happen to think they learn more if they're TAUGHT more, and more often than once a day (as would be the case if I raised my son according to your advice). I do not believe "pain" is the only way to teach a child.



Or in the ways I mentioned and then RE-mentioned in my last post, which you have not addressed.



One could argue that you're doing just that simply by telling them "There's an error in paragraph four". I mean, a true, hardcore subscriber to your theory here wouldn't give them ANY assistance. After all, that forces them even more to accept responsibility for their own work.

This is a really great post Vic! The whole point is to teach children! You don't do their work for them. What kind of an instructor simply tells a child, "This is bad!", but never tells the child anything other than, "It's wrong and you've made too many mistakes!"? A really bad instructor, that's who! It leaves far too many unanswered questions and simply tells a child that they're either worthless, stupid or lazy!

Okay....so it's WRONG. WHY is it wrong? HOW is it wrong! What do I need to do to make it right? A "teacher" who only criticizes is simply a critic. A "teacher" who instructs...is a REAL teacher!
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:05 AM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,368,217 times
Reputation: 32243
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Thanks Dew! I never allowed those proofreading sessions to turn into "put down" or "feel bad", events. They were helpful, fun and quite often, funnier than heck times!
A good story:

When I was in elementary school I had to learn all the state capitals. And I just wasn't getting it. So I went to my dad who was a geography whiz. He quickly turned a very dull lesson into a game. We came up with rhymes and word clues for all the capitals so I could list them in class on the test.

Thirty years after that one of us would say, "Noisey, Boisey I-da-ho!" and we'd start laughing. Why does learning have to be dull and boring and come from a place of pain? (And yeah, I still know all fifty capitals.) Sac-ra-men-to has a doe-doe. (I aced that baby, lol And my dad was as proud of that A as I was.)
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