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Old 12-26-2011, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,798,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strawflower View Post
Oh lordy. No, I'm not getting a grade as in an "A", or a "B", but it's the real world. I'm getting a "this is great! What an interesting way to market this product!" or a "Straw, what the hell are you thinking?". If there were grammatical errors that went unnoticed by me and the proofreader changed them for me, they're not doing the work. I did the bulk of what was written, they fixed two or three things. I'm not sure why you think a parent pointing out a missed comma, for example, is them doing the work for the child. It's something that every writer in the professional world does
It goes beyond missed commas but the point is that the grade is being given to the child not the parent. If the parents editing of the paper results in a better grade than the child deserves, that's cheating and it teaches the child that it's someone elses job to make sure their paper makes the grade. (and people wonder why we have grade inflation ).

The point is that children are learning how to proof their own work. Doing it for them is the same as me pre grading something and handing it back to the student to be corrected before it's actually graded. The grade is now meaningless because it's not their work being graded. What you're teaching children is it's ok to get the answers from someone else and pass them off as your own answers to get a better grade. Personally, I ahve a problem with that.

It's one thing to teach your kids and reinforce what they've learned at school but what they turn in should be their own work, not yours. I think kids who have parents who don't proof their work and check their answers will be ahead in the long run. I have so many students who are incapable of assessing the quality of their own work. It's "Mrs. I, could you read this and see if it's ok" at which point I adopt a puzzled look and ask "Do you want me to grade it now????"... It is important that THEY learn how to assess their own work. THEY need to decide when it's good enough to turn in and if they learn a few lessons the hard way, well that's life...and it's good for them. (BTW, my students are allowed to do rewrites and I'll average the two grades. I do this so they will take my comments to heart and apply them. - FTR, I see major improvement from the first lab reports written to about the 4th lab reports written.)

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 12-26-2011 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:52 PM
 
Location: In a house
13,258 posts, read 34,776,541 times
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I know for sure that Ivorytickler's "method" would've produced a whole lotta nuttin were I the student and she the teacher -or- the parent.

My previous post actually pertained to math, not writing. I'm a better writer than either of my parents, and take after my grandmother, who was a playwright. My dad, however, was an engineer and math proficiency came naturally to him. He would check my math homework because he knew I sucked at math. He'd say, "you got questions 5, 7, and 8 wrong. The rest is fine." And it'd be up to me to figure out what was wrong with questions 5, 7, and 8. I would then have to fix it.

Unfortunately, often times I had no understanding of the formula and had to ask dad's help. I just couldn't visualize the concepts in my head, the way I could with stories. If he had refused to review my homework, and left me to my own devices, I would -not- have been motivated to improve. I wouldn't have cared if I got a failing grade. As it was, I was a D student in math, except when I got help from dad. He helped me understand the concepts, understand the "meaning" of the formulae, so that I wasn't just memorizing Z(f2/74+y9-3) (or whatever it was), and instead, UNDERSTOOD what Z meant. What f2 meant. Why I needed to divide f2 by 74, and why it wasn't 74+y9, divided into f2 but was, rather, f2 divided by 74, and then the total added to y9. Without dad, I would not have understood that. The teacher and the textbook could have explained it over and over and used flash cards to drum the forumula into my head, but I wouldn't have "gotten it."

It was more important for me, and for my parents, that I *understood* what I was doing, and less important that I memorized it. They felt if I understood it, I wouldn't need to memorize it.

I am very very grateful that my teacher, and my parents, were not Ivorytickler. I would've flunked math for sure, and would not have given a tinker's damn.
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,696,463 times
Reputation: 19417
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick View Post
I know for sure that Ivorytickler's "method" would've produced a whole lotta nuttin were I the student and she the teacher -or- the parent.

My previous post actually pertained to math, not writing. I'm a better writer than either of my parents, and take after my grandmother, who was a playwright. My dad, however, was an engineer and math proficiency came naturally to him. He would check my math homework because he knew I sucked at math. He'd say, "you got questions 5, 7, and 8 wrong. The rest is fine." And it'd be up to me to figure out what was wrong with questions 5, 7, and 8. I would then have to fix it.

Unfortunately, often times I had no understanding of the formula and had to ask dad's help. I just couldn't visualize the concepts in my head, the way I could with stories. If he had refused to review my homework, and left me to my own devices, I would -not- have been motivated to improve. I wouldn't have cared if I got a failing grade. As it was, I was a D student in math, except when I got help from dad. He helped me understand the concepts, understand the "meaning" of the formulae, so that I wasn't just memorizing Z(f2/74+y9-3) (or whatever it was), and instead, UNDERSTOOD what Z meant. What f2 meant. Why I needed to divide f2 by 74, and why it wasn't 74+y9, divided into f2 but was, rather, f2 divided by 74, and then the total added to y9. Without dad, I would not have understood that. The teacher and the textbook could have explained it over and over and used flash cards to drum the forumula into my head, but I wouldn't have "gotten it."

It was more important for me, and for my parents, that I *understood* what I was doing, and less important that I memorized it. They felt if I understood it, I wouldn't need to memorize it.

I am very very grateful that my teacher, and my parents, were not Ivorytickler. I would've flunked math for sure, and would not have given a tinker's damn.
I am the same type of learner. If I'd have had teachers like that, I probably would have done very poorly, if for no other reason than sheer rebellion! "You don't care? Fine, I don't care either!"
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:30 PM
 
12,943 posts, read 19,885,336 times
Reputation: 34075
It's been several years since I had any involvement in homework, so things may have changed in schools. My biggest gripe during the early years was "inventive spelling", which was stressed as a way to encourage kids to get their thoughts out on paper without worrying about the finer points of spelling and grammar. There were many times when I would hand back a paper to one of my kids for correction, only to be told "My teacher doesn't care about that".

I cared! As they reached middle school and high school, that school of thought changed, and some, but not all, of their teachers would take points off. At that point I became more valuable to the boys, who would beg me to proofread everything they wrote. I was the master of the red pen, feelings be damned.

By the time they reached college, they were capable of doing all this on their own, although, to give credit where it is due, spell-check helps enormously.

A little of my effort, a little on the part of the teachers, and most of all, initiative on the part of the kids meant that nobody felt it necessary to have me proof read their college essays. I never thought it would come to that but eventually the awful inventive spelling was overcome.

But the original post was more about parents interfering with grades, no? I never did. I didn't always agree with the final grade, because it some cases it was higher than I thought the work deserved.

In the 12 years X 3 kids of elementary-high school years, I only had to speak to 2 teachers who honestly seemed not to be giving my kids a fair shake.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,798,842 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick View Post
I know for sure that Ivorytickler's "method" would've produced a whole lotta nuttin were I the student and she the teacher -or- the parent.

My previous post actually pertained to math, not writing. I'm a better writer than either of my parents, and take after my grandmother, who was a playwright. My dad, however, was an engineer and math proficiency came naturally to him. He would check my math homework because he knew I sucked at math. He'd say, "you got questions 5, 7, and 8 wrong. The rest is fine." And it'd be up to me to figure out what was wrong with questions 5, 7, and 8. I would then have to fix it.

Unfortunately, often times I had no understanding of the formula and had to ask dad's help. I just couldn't visualize the concepts in my head, the way I could with stories. If he had refused to review my homework, and left me to my own devices, I would -not- have been motivated to improve. I wouldn't have cared if I got a failing grade. As it was, I was a D student in math, except when I got help from dad. He helped me understand the concepts, understand the "meaning" of the formulae, so that I wasn't just memorizing Z(f2/74+y9-3) (or whatever it was), and instead, UNDERSTOOD what Z meant. What f2 meant. Why I needed to divide f2 by 74, and why it wasn't 74+y9, divided into f2 but was, rather, f2 divided by 74, and then the total added to y9. Without dad, I would not have understood that. The teacher and the textbook could have explained it over and over and used flash cards to drum the forumula into my head, but I wouldn't have "gotten it."

It was more important for me, and for my parents, that I *understood* what I was doing, and less important that I memorized it. They felt if I understood it, I wouldn't need to memorize it.

I am very very grateful that my teacher, and my parents, were not Ivorytickler. I would've flunked math for sure, and would not have given a tinker's damn.
You, and other posters, are twisting what I said to fit your own agenda. I didn't say not to help your kids. I said not to give them the answers. Don't fix it for them. Helping doens't involve correcting their mistakes. Children need to learn how to correct their own mistakes, like your father did for you. It's fine to say "This isn't right", it's something else to give a child the answer. Your father's approach and mine are identical. He left it up to you to figure out what was wrong and to fix it so the work you turned in was your own not his. I'm complaining about parents who fix it for their kids instead of expecting the child to fix it themselves.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,798,842 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
I am the same type of learner. If I'd have had teachers like that, I probably would have done very poorly, if for no other reason than sheer rebellion! "You don't care? Fine, I don't care either!"
Please go back and actually read my posts this time. Part of what I am teaching my students is how to assess their own work. THEY need to decide when it's good enough to turn in and they need to be able to proof their own work. Fixing their mistakes for them, teaches them nothing.

But you'll be happy to know I'm getting out of teaching....since I'm so bad at it that test scores went up 57% in my last school when I was there...Yeah, I have no clue what I'm doing... I'm just sick of people like you twisting what I say so they can say I'm awful....
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:40 PM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,443,527 times
Reputation: 32248
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I had a student get an 82 on her first lab report. Her mother came in and told me how wonderfully written it was because SHE was a professional writer. It eventually (after 3 meetings) came out that the mother would make the child change all of the corrections we made in class (we go over rough drafts for the first lab reports as a group) since she "was a professional writer". She made the child take it out of the passive voice (something most science papers are in), made her use direct quotes instead of paraphrase (another science no no) with in text cites, and put all of the the citations in MLA instead of CBE.

Meanwhile I had to miss three tutoring sessions to have these meetings and couldn't work with my students who actually were seeking out help. Ugh.
I can assure you that not all professional writers do this. In fact I don't know one who would.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:48 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,269,666 times
Reputation: 14658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
You, and other posters, are twisting what I said to fit your own agenda. I didn't say not to help your kids. I said not to give them the answers. Don't fix it for them. Helping doens't involve correcting their mistakes. Children need to learn how to correct their own mistakes, like your father did for you. It's fine to say "This isn't right", it's something else to give a child the answer.
There is a whole world between that's not right and the answer is 7. That's not right is often not enough information to identify where there error is.
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:11 PM
 
1,135 posts, read 1,989,747 times
Reputation: 1481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The point, that is going right over your head, is they learn MORE by correcting it themselves or living with the consequences of not correcting it than they ever could by you correcting it for them. And no, you don't praise them for correcting their own error. A better grade is the reward for doing so. Sadly, too many parents are making sure their child gets the better grade when it's not deserved.

The only way the teacher drops the ball is if she fails to take points off for the mistake.

Kids deserve the right to earn their grades. Mommy making sure they get a better grade teaches them nothing other than it's mommy's job to make sure they get a better grade. I deal with these kids every single day. You should see the looks on their faces when they ask me to pre-read their work and give them feedback when I ask "Would you like me to grade this now???". They want someone else to get the points for them. They want a better grade than their work deserves. I won't rob them of the opportunity to learn by getting the grade they deserve for THEIR work.
Ivory,

Every school has its own policy on just what parents are expected to do when helping their children with homework assignments. Here's what's in our school handbook:

Parents are encouraged to …

Establish a regular time and place for doing homework.
Provide necessary materials and supplies for homework completion.
Ask their child about what the child is studying in school.
Ask their child to show them any homework assignments.
Assist their child in organizing their homework materials.
Help their child formulate a plan for completing homework.
Parents may, if they wish…
Help their child interpret assignment directions.
Proofread their child’s work, pointing out errors.
Read aloud required reading to your child.
Give practice quizzes to their child to help prepare for tests.
Help their child brainstorm ideas for papers and projects.
Praise their child for completing homework.
Parents should not…
Attempt to teach their child concepts or skills the child in which the child is unfamiliar.
Complete assignments for their child.
Allow the child to sacrifice sleep to complete homework.

So proofreading the final draft of my child's assignments is fine, according to the school district's standards.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,437 posts, read 41,820,424 times
Reputation: 47043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
It's been several years since I had any involvement in homework, so things may have changed in schools. My biggest gripe during the early years was "inventive spelling", which was stressed as a way to encourage kids to get their thoughts out on paper without worrying about the finer points of spelling and grammar. There were many times when I would hand back a paper to one of my kids for correction, only to be told "My teacher doesn't care about that".

I cared! As they reached middle school and high school, that school of thought changed,[I] (sadly Mattie it has not changed )[/i]and some, but not all, of their teachers would take points off. At that point I became more valuable to the boys, who would beg me to proofread everything they wrote. I was the master of the red pen, feelings be damned.

By the time they reached college, they were capable of doing all this on their own, although, to give credit where it is due, spell-check helps enormously.

This inventive spelling is driving me crazy. When my girls tell me the teacher doesn't care and it's not important, I get upset too. I discussed this with the teachers and were told in the early years correct spelling is not emphasized because it might discourage the kids from even trying to get a point across. I kind of understand that but when do you kids start learning the proper rules of spelling and grammar?

My 30 year old PhD son can't spell worth a hoot. he has grown up with inventive spelling and spell check and has no understanding of the basics of spelling. Now when my 9 y.o. girls tell me the teacher doesn't care I say OK for that teacher but this Mom teacher does so you can leave the wrong spelling on your paper but take a piece of paper and write down the words you are trying to spell and you will learn the proper spelling here at home and you will be that much further along in learning how to spell.

AND WTF ever happened to spelling tests? Every teacher laughs at me when I ask. Fine ,laugh all you want but we have spelling lessons and test here at home and I make no apologies about it.
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