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I didasgree. What they learn is to rely on someone else to make sure things are right. They don't learn how to do that on their own. What we learn in pain, we retain. It's not painful to have mom fix it before you turn it in. It is painful to lose a grade because you didn't proof. My students who lose points don't make the same mistake twice. When I tell them things without the point penalty, I find I tell them the same thing over and over. It's not until it hurts that it sinks in.
I want my own children to be independent learners so I con't get involved with THEIR homework unless they need something explained. I don't read papers before they turn them in, unless they ask and then I'll read for clarity. If I find grammatical issues, I will tell them they need to proof their paper before turning it in. I don't tell them why. It's up to them to find the errors as that is part of their job. IMO, fixing their misakes for them means that what they are turning in is not their work. What they learn is to rely on someone else to find and fix their mistakes. The do not learn not to make them and they don't learn how to find them themselves.
This is a weak area with most of my students. They can't proof their own work because they've been trained that that is not their job. Its' someone elses.
If you are fixing a child's mistakes for them, they are not finding and fixing them themselves. The two ARE mututally exclusive. Trust me, after afew low grades, kids learn really fast to proof their own work.
While I agree that students should proof their own papers, I don't see anything wrong with a parent proof-reading a final draft. The report I mentioned in my earlier post was written over a two-week period. I didn't look at it until my daughter was ready to hand in her final presentation.
I've earned my living as a writer for the past 20 years (corporate communications and news reporting). All final drafts are proof-read by a second person before they are published, whether it's an advertising postcard or a 2,000-word investigative reporting piece. It's easy to miss a small grammar mistake when you've been working on a project for hours or days.
At the weekly paper where I work now we spend a full day editing the final 90-page draft, because some mistakes aren't caught until the pages are actually printed. If professional writers have their final drafts edited, I don't think it's a big deal for parents to give their children's papers a quick review, as long as they've done the rest of the work themselves.
When I was in high school, my best friend was Asian. Her parents checked and double-checked all of her homework, which apparently is common in the Asian culture. But, they expected her to work hard and excel, so I'm sure she never showed them anything that she hadn't already checked herself. In other words, she certainly didn't expect them to do her work for her. It worked out well for her. She ended up going to a highly ranked medical school where she did just fine without her parents' help.
Last edited by LisaMc46; 12-25-2011 at 07:52 PM..
Reason: Added last paragraph
beachmel, you're not quite as loony as I thought! You know, for a gal named "beach"
Just because I'm bored...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I didasgree. What they learn is to rely on someone else to make sure things are right. They don't learn how to do that on their own. What we learn in pain, we retain. It's not painful to have mom fix it before you turn it in. It is painful to lose a grade because you didn't proof. My students who lose points don't make the same mistake twice. When I tell them things without the point penalty, I find I tell them the same thing over and over. It's not until it hurts that it sinks in.
Apparently that's not always the case. I mean, I wasn't raised that way and it would seem that AnonChick wasn't either. There's got to be more to it (the result of a kid relying on someone else and not learning) than a parent simply helping their kid with their homework.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I want my own children to be independent learners so I con't get involved with THEIR homework unless they need something explained. I don't read papers before they turn them in, unless they ask and then I'll read for clarity. If I find grammatical issues, I will tell them they need to proof their paper before turning it in. I don't tell them why. It's up to them to find the errors as that is part of their job. IMO, fixing their misakes for them means that what they are turning in is not their work. What they learn is to rely on someone else to find and fix their mistakes. The do not learn not to make them and they don't learn how to find them themselves.
This I agree with. Reason would have it that you should first give them a chance to find the specific errors they've made. Of course, this too is helping them in some way, sort of contrasting with your expressed value of pain.
What of the reasons I gave for my opinions? Could you give me more insight into the contingencies I brought up?
We recently had a new employee ask for major changes to her schedule. She couldn't work after 8pm, no more than 25 hours a week, no earlier than 10am, not on weekends or holidays...
When she was basically told that wasn't going to work if she wanted the job, her mom showed up to argue about it. You just know this was one of those mothers who fought every time her daughter bombed a test because she didn't study.
I also remember being in college and having the professor tell us 70% of the test would be on chapters 6-7, and 30% on chapters 8-9. Some students bombed the test- and counted up how many questions came from each chapter as proof the professor lied and the test wasn't fair. See, they only studied chapters 6-7 because that was supposed to be the majority of the test- which basically meant they were just fine getting no more than a 70%. Amazing.
While I agree that students should proof their own papers, I don't see anything wrong with a parent proof-reading a final draft. The report I mentioned in my earlier post was written over a two-week period. I didn't look at it until my daughter was ready to hand in her final presentation.
I've earned my living as a writer for the past 20 years (corporate communications and news reporting). All final drafts are proof-read by a second person before they are published, whether it's an advertising postcard or a 2,000-word investigative reporting piece. It's easy to miss a small grammar mistake when you've been working on a project for hours or days.
At the weekly paper where I work now we spend a full day editing the final 90-page draft, because some mistakes aren't caught until the pages are actually printed. If professional writers have their final drafts edited, I don't think it's a big deal for parents to give their children's papers a quick review, as long as they've done the rest of the work themselves.
When I was in high school, my best friend was Asian. Her parents checked and double-checked all of her homework, which apparently is common in the Asian culture. But, they expected her to work hard and excel, so I'm sure she never showed them anything that she hadn't already checked herself. In other words, she certainly didn't expect them to do her work for her. It worked out well for her. She ended up going to a highly ranked medical school where she did just fine without her parents' help.
Another corporate writer here. (Well, I work for the marketing team, but I do lots of writing.) It would be very much frowned upon to turn in anything without revising and editing with another person. It's not being lazy, or having others do the work for you. It's called common sense and using your resources.
Another corporate writer here. (Well, I work for the marketing team, but I do lots of writing.) It would be very much frowned upon to turn in anything without revising and editing with another person. It's not being lazy, or having others do the work for you. It's called common sense and using your resources.
I do understand what you're saying, but it would be expected that as an adult writer you know and understand the rules. So if you miss something, it's just that blindness that comes from having stared at your own work for hours on end. But a child might not even know the error existed or wasn't keeping it in mind, so wouldn't it be better to just say "There's an error in paragraph four" and let them see if they can spot it first? It seems like that would better help them be analytical, and then if they can't spot it the parent can point it out and explain it.
While I agree that students should proof their own papers, I don't see anything wrong with a parent proof-reading a final draft. The report I mentioned in my earlier post was written over a two-week period. I didn't look at it until my daughter was ready to hand in her final presentation.
I've earned my living as a writer for the past 20 years (corporate communications and news reporting). All final drafts are proof-read by a second person before they are published, whether it's an advertising postcard or a 2,000-word investigative reporting piece. It's easy to miss a small grammar mistake when you've been working on a project for hours or days.
At the weekly paper where I work now we spend a full day editing the final 90-page draft, because some mistakes aren't caught until the pages are actually printed. If professional writers have their final drafts edited, I don't think it's a big deal for parents to give their children's papers a quick review, as long as they've done the rest of the work themselves.
When I was in high school, my best friend was Asian. Her parents checked and double-checked all of her homework, which apparently is common in the Asian culture. But, they expected her to work hard and excel, so I'm sure she never showed them anything that she hadn't already checked herself. In other words, she certainly didn't expect them to do her work for her. It worked out well for her. She ended up going to a highly ranked medical school where she did just fine without her parents' help.
What is wrong with the teacher proofing the final draft, when she grades it, and your child getting the grade they deserve for their own proof work? There comes a point when you must let your children's work stand on it's own and get the grade it, truely, deserves. If you're always fixing it, at the last minute, you only teach them that you will fix it at the last minute. Seriously, parents, it's ok if your child gets a C on a paper and they will learn more from that C than you could ever teach them by proofing their papers for them.
Another corporate writer here. (Well, I work for the marketing team, but I do lots of writing.) It would be very much frowned upon to turn in anything without revising and editing with another person. It's not being lazy, or having others do the work for you. It's called common sense and using your resources.
But your papers are not being graded. Who deserves the grade for proofing if the proofing is done by someone other than the student? AND students should be learning to proof their own work. A lower grade is the consequence of not doing so. Parents who proof their children's work remove the natural consequence of children not proofing it themselves. Children learn best through natural consequences. All you teach a child is it's someone elses job to proof their work when you proof it for them. The difference between you and the child in question is that child is still learning how to proof. You should already know how. Yes, you double check before publishing, but kids should get the grade they deserve not the grade mom deserves.
I do understand what you're saying, but it would be expected that as an adult writer you know and understand the rules. So if you miss something, it's just that blindness that comes from having stared at your own work for hours on end. But a child might not even know the error existed or wasn't keeping it in mind, so wouldn't it be better to just say "There's an error in paragraph four" and let them see if they can spot it first? It seems like that would better help them be analytical, and then if they can't spot it the parent can point it out and explain it.
Telling them, "There is an error in paragraph four." is helping them to become better proof readers. Correcting the error for them doesn't.
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Trust me, after afew low grades, kids learn really fast to proof their own work.
There comes a point when you must let your children's work stand on it's own and get the grade it, truely, deserves. If you're always fixing it, at the last minute, you only teach them that you will fix it at the last minute. Seriously, parents, it's ok if your child gets a C on a paper and they will learn more from that C than you could ever teach them by proofing their papers for them.
Telling them, "There is an error in paragraph four." is helping them to become better proof readers. Correcting the error for them doesn't.
