U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 01-04-2012, 01:13 PM
 
1,067 posts, read 1,380,967 times
Reputation: 1070

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alltheusernamesaretaken View Post
There is no God-given right to be on Facebook, so there's no reason a parent can't say "No Facebook page until you're 18."
And yes, it's easy enough to find out if your kid has a page despite not being allowed to.

And why are kids as young as 7-ish on Facebook, with their own pages?? I can never believe this when I see it.

I have a friend on fb who created a page for her son while she was pregnant with him. I found that VERY strange.

 
Old 01-04-2012, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,822,564 times
Reputation: 14681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
They are proud of themselves. This is about power. They succeeded. And they'll get away with it. It's about being so important that you can control another person.

We have raised a generation of kids to think they are better than everyone else. From the time they were little, we've praised them and told them how special they are. It should come as no suprise that when the praise stops, they'll turn to putting others down to feel good about themselves. They want that I'm better than you feeling they've grown up with. When they world doesn't tell them how special and wonderful they are, they settle for building themselves up by tearing others down. While they'll be shocked they actually pushed her to kill herself, once the shock wears off, they'll be amazed with themselves for having that much power.

And for the ones bullied, all that praise resulted in shallow self esteem that crumbles at the first criticism. When the world not only doesn't tell them how great they are but tells them how awful they are, they can't deal with it. All this feel good parenting is coming back to bite us. Parents did this to kids. Yes, we built their self esteem but we built monsters too and left our kids without the ability to fight them or fight becomming one.
You do realize your 2nd and 3rd paragraph are totally contradictory, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I don't agree with this. We need to TEACH kids how to deal with the bullying. Bullies will always be able to be more circumspect so as not to get caught by authority. The last thing we need is zero tolerance. We need to be able to distinguish between right and wrong. And a bully victim needs to have the freedom to defend themselves.
The dynamic of bullying is that bullies choose victims who will not defend themselves. We can teach children techniques to defend themselves, whether or not they will prove usable depends on the individual child. The responsibility still lies with the bully, and not the victim.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 02:08 PM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,426,352 times
Reputation: 32248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
We have raised a generation of kids to think they are better than everyone else. From the time they were little, we've praised them and told them how special they are. It should come as no suprise that when the praise stops, they'll turn to putting others down to feel good about themselves. They want that I'm better than you feeling they've grown up with. When they world doesn't tell them how special and wonderful they are, they settle for building themselves up by tearing others down. While they'll be shocked they actually pushed her to kill herself, once the shock wears off, they'll be amazed with themselves for having that much power.
So how do you explain the fact that school bullies existed in the days of one-room school houses back when NOBODY was telling little Sarah Jane how special she was.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 02:15 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,264,242 times
Reputation: 14658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
The dynamic of bullying is that bullies choose victims who will not defend themselves. We can teach children techniques to defend themselves, whether or not they will prove usable depends on the individual child. The responsibility still lies with the bully, and not the victim.
While it is true that authorities need to protect innocents, the point I am trying to make is that the zero tolerance policies around physical stuff works in favor of the violent and to the detriment of those who would protect themselves.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 02:33 PM
 
1,759 posts, read 1,700,964 times
Reputation: 945
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
So how do you explain the fact that school bullies existed in the days of one-room school houses back when NOBODY was telling little Sarah Jane how special she was.
There certainly was bullying then, but it was not "a-OK".
These days EVERYthing is "a-OK" because kids "have differences, syndromes, excuses" for every blessed thing.

It is harder to get kids (some kids) to realize the difference between right and wrong currently
because we are so busy telling them how fab and special they all are
and making sure everyone gets a sticker.

Today's kids may think it's acceptable to rally together [sometimes anonymously] on the Internet and continue to beat down a deceased person
but
previously they would have a very good idea that they were indeed the scum of the earth for doing so.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,233,062 times
Reputation: 2387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alltheusernamesaretaken View Post
There certainly was bullying then, but it was not "a-OK".
These days EVERYthing is "a-OK" because kids "have differences, syndromes, excuses" for every blessed thing.

It is harder to get kids (some kids) to realize the difference between right and wrong currently
because we are so busy telling them how fab and special they all are
and making sure everyone gets a sticker.


Today's kids may think it's acceptable to rally together [sometimes anonymously] on the Internet and continue to beat down a deceased person
but
previously they would have a very good idea that they were indeed the scum of the earth for doing so.
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I'm not sure that there's any research evidence for a causal link or even a correlation between what I've bolded above and bullying.

I think they are interesting ideas, but I disagree that bullying is considered A-OK today, and am not sure that bullies 20 or 50 years ago had a good idea that they were the scum of the earth or that most kids today would find beating down the deceased to be acceptable. I do agree the some of the bullying behaviors in the news recently are absolutely horrifying. Please believe me when I say I'm no "trophies for everyone" parent, but I think it's really important that we get at the right causes and fast, and I have yet to see evidence that "parenting these days" is the most parsimonious answer. If it turns out to have empirical support, I'll gladly change my mind then.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 03:09 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,264,242 times
Reputation: 14658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
They are proud of themselves. This is about power. They succeeded. And they'll get away with it. It's about being so important that you can control another person.

We have raised a generation of kids to think they are better than everyone else. From the time they were little, we've praised them and told them how special they are. It should come as no suprise that when the praise stops, they'll turn to putting others down to feel good about themselves.
Anyone who wants a really good look at self esteem and how we have fudged it in child rearing to some degree should take a look at.

Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

I swear the author ought to be paying me kick backs.

There was a movement in time in which the prevailing wisdom was to switch from a highly negative, punishment when you do wrong, children should be seen and not heard to a notion that kids' self esteem matters. They are going to do their best when they feel good about themselves. This is true and good. In walks praise.

But this step was a baby step that needs to be reexamined and refined.

As we know simply praising kids doesn't do the job. There is a problem with praising for actions and behaviors. When a person feels valuable (self esteem) based SOLELY on good actions or lack of bad actions, their self esteem is in constant volatile move. Do something right or well, up it goes. Make a mistake, down it plummets. And we ALLLLLL make mistakes. Having your self esteem plummet with each one is so way no good.

This is when kids start looking for artificial means of building the tenuous self esteem up.

We need to imbue in our children a strong sense of self value based on existence. They are valuable JUST THE WAY THEY ARE. They are loved simply for being them. Parents should be really good at that, unconditional love just the way you are.

When they feel valueable just for being, then accomplishments can help them feel capable, but does not exaggerate their self worth to the realm of boorishness. When they make a mistake, they feel bad, maybe capable of looking for remedy and amends but not devastated.

...

The author does a great job also describing how not to accidentally lose credibility with praise. Praise would be you telling your son Wow what an awesome painting. But what if he hates the painting and meant it to be blue instead of red? Or his teacher got a D on it? Mom doesn't know what she is talking about. Worse Mom is lying about how good my painting is. Instead we can use descriptive appreciation. I am looking at your painting. The oranges and reds make me think of a sunny day in the Caribbean. I feel like I just got a little vacation! The teacher can think he screwed up the composition or whatever to her hearts content. No one can take away that the child made you feel like you got a little vacation.

Self esteem is a HUG big deal, IMO, in the area of feeling capable to solve problems, trust, responding to disciplinary actions, applying self discipline...
 
Old 01-04-2012, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,233,062 times
Reputation: 2387
Somebodynew: what a great post. I laughed out loud about the kickbacks from the author.

The term "self-esteem" drives me crazy because it CAN be defined in a really fuzzy way, but what you described in your post, IMO, is a great functional definition and a dead-on way to teach kids self respect and self worth.

I completely agree that undifferentiated praise is useless, at best. IMO, there are a lot of folks who misunderstood or misused the principles of positive reinforcement and when other folks condemn that approach as useless, they are talking about when it is misused, not when it is used properly.
 
Old 01-04-2012, 04:46 PM
 
5,258 posts, read 7,806,374 times
Reputation: 3274
So tragic
 
Old 01-04-2012, 05:13 PM
 
3,647 posts, read 9,334,952 times
Reputation: 5427
Obviously, the answer isn't one-sided and doesn't rest with any ONE side or person.

Parents need to teach their children compassion and respect for others. Empathy even, and teach them that apathy to bullying is just as bad as bullying themselves. Parents also need to teach their children to stand up for themselves, and when it's gone too far (yes, in some cases, it goes beyond what most of us experience/experienced when we were kids) that they need to tell adults, and keep telling adults, until someone steps in and actually HELPS them.

The schools need to reinforce their bs "zero tolerance" policies, and quit hiding bullying incidents.

Kids who are bullies are horrible little people, but they became horrible little people due to their environment. While the kids need to be held accountable for their actions, the reasons for their bullying behavior needs to be looked into as well.

People in general need to learn discernment. There is a difference between a kid picking on a kid because they have the "wrong" shoes by teasing them and calling them names and a kid knocking another child down to the ground and punching them in the back of the head daily. Calling someone a "weirdo" is not nearly as bad as posting nasty, ugly rumors and insults about a child and to a child on a social networking forum.

I HATE the phrase "it takes a village" because I feel it's not only overused, but thrown out to excuse the behavior (or lack thereof) of those closest to the problem. It does take EVERYONE though... if you, as an adult, see a kid being teased, do you stop and say something? Or do you shrug and walk away? How about your kids? Maybe they're not the ones doing the bullying, or being bullied... but I GUARANTEE you they've witnessed it. If you're not stepping up, in front of them, it's unlikely they are. Have you ever seen a cashier being browbeaten by an irate customer in line with you? Seen an out of control parent screaming at their child for no apparent reason? What did you do? More importantly, what did your child learn from watching what you did or didn't do?

When my daughter was attacked viciously in her classroom, out of 22 other students, only ONE stepped up. ONE. 21 other children in the classroom just turned away, not wanting to get involved or thinking it was none of their business. I have a really poor perception of them AND their parents... I believe their parents were JUST AS APATHETIC as they were. I fought the school to have her attacker removed from her classroom. A year later he began to attack another child, and the mother called me (a year later, by then we'd moved) I asked her why she didn't step up when I asked the other parents for help the year before. I didn't say I wouldn't help her, but she hung up on me. While I hope her daughter is okay, I believe her daughter is reaping what she, her other classmates and her parents sowed.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top