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Old 01-11-2012, 02:54 PM
Status: "God was not in Stalingrad." (set 7 days ago)
 
13,692 posts, read 17,705,108 times
Reputation: 11886

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Quote:
Homey don't play that! I am so not going down the he touched it last road. I am not necessarily the one who generates the poo stain on the toilet. We are a family, a team. We all chip in.
I tend to agree that we all chip in with getting things done. However, when my son is at school all day, comes home and does his homework and then pulls out a couple toys that he played with for 30 minutes before it was clean up time, is it really fair to make him clean up his sisters mess?

I don't think it is fair and it's not really the "who touched it last" scenario. In this case I don't think he should be punished for not helping, but I think he deserves positive praise and reinforcement when he does help.

The poo stain, IMO, is a little different. If it's your turn to clean the toilets, you clean the toilets, even if its not the one you usually use. I do think there is a difference there.

Quote:
Insofar as you are ok with arbitrary consequences that have nothing to whatever was going on, I cannot agree with you.
I still fail to see where my consequences are arbitrary. If we polled everyone who has read this thread, I doubt they would say that anything I have listed as a consequence that we use is arbitrary or illogical.

Besides, what's arbitrary about me taking away their toys until they do what's expected of them versus you putting their toys in a "Saturday box"? Is that not essentially the same thing? I could argue that your method is actually more arbitrary than mine and reinforces nothing. Who cares if you take away the toys, they're just vacationing in the box until Sunday when we get them back.

Quote:
Red, yellow, green behavior charts and arbitrary consequences probably won't yield sociopaths, but that is not a solution I would ever choose.

Luckily the school my kids go to use tactics pretty much like I describe, so I don't have to deal with that bizness.
Right, because the experts that don't agree with your experts aren't experts. Something tells me you haven't really read much about the PBS model that is used in a LOT of schools these days. I don't see much difference in practical terms versus what you describe as the "right way" except you think the chart is ridiculous.

As for the methods my kids are exposed to "probably not yielding sociopaths", well I'm sure that your methods "probably" won't result in sloppy, self-indulgent slackers that you need to support well into their thirties, but that is not a solution I would ever choose.

Quote:
I don't even think picking up toys is a moral imperative. Could I care less if they choose to be complete slobs in their own house?
It's not a moral imperative. It's about respecting my home and my desire to not live in a home that looks like Toys R' Us after a tornado. When they have their own homes they can choose to live however they want. Hopefully they will take the standards and model that they grew up with and apply it to their own homes. My wife and I both grew up in clean and organized homes and we keep a clean and organized home. It's not an obsession and it doesn't rule our lives, but it is something we strive for.

If we want to get all "experty" about it, multiple studies have proven that kids who grow up in a clean and organized home and share in the expectation of maintaining it, perform better in school. A high percentage of children raised in that type of environment become organized individuals themselves and are ultimately more succesful in their adult years.

Quote:
But my kids DO contribute to the family as a whole, and without complaint, because it is the right thing to do. Of this I am pretty sure.
Do they? Are you really so sure that they do what's expected of them simply because it's expected of them and that consequence serves no role in compelling that behavior? There are plenty of "experts" that could argue about that one for a long time.

Last edited by NJGOAT; 01-11-2012 at 03:25 PM..
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Wallis and Futuna
11,294 posts, read 17,258,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Thanks for posting this. I have been following what you've been saying as you've been responding in other threads, and I find it rather enlightening, actually.

It's lead me to rethink a couple of things as far as disciplining our 4 year old. She's gotten into the habit of dawdling on preschool mornings and I've realized I've been continually nagging her to get dressed and get going or we're going to be late. Now I can continue doing that, or providing a punishment of some sort, but I'm thinking I'm just going to allow the natural consequence of her messing about to happen, which will be that she's late for school. She doesn't want to be late for school, but she has no real world experience in what that means.

So next week, if she does it again, I'm going to remind her she'll be late and then just let it happen. If we turn up in the middle of her morning meeting instead of on time, she'll actually get to experience the consequence of being late, and I'm pretty sure she won't do it again. I'm going to tell the preschool that's what I'm doing, so I'll have their cooperation.

I figure it's either that, or I'll be nagging her in the morning until she's 18.
This is a great strategy, IF you want to encourage your child to not consider the needs and/or feelings of anyone else. You're teaching her that she CAN be late, any time she wants, and the only drawback to that, is that she's late.

What about when mom has to work at a designated time, and has a boss to answer to? What about when mom is dropping her child off to school on the way to a doctor's appointment? How does "okay but you're gonna be late, there's your natural consequence" teach your child that doctors don't appreciate when moms are late to appointments, and sometimes will take the next patient, and bill mom for the missed visit?

How does a kid learn that being punctual is *important* and there is much more than simply natural consequences of being late, if that's all you give her?

How about if she's late getting in the car when you're trying to pack up for an air plane trip with the family to another destination? You gonna just say "oh well, so much for the plane tickets, which we paid for already, and so much for our reservations, with a non-refundable deposit. And ooops, guess no Disney World this year, and what the heck am I gonna DO all week at home, and we'll have to get the dog back from the kennel, and I guess we didn't need all those self-watering doodads for the indoor plants..."

"natural consequences" doesn't teach darling daughter diddly squat, except that she is -allowed- to do whatever she wants, and no one else's needs or feelings matter.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:04 PM
Status: "God was not in Stalingrad." (set 7 days ago)
 
13,692 posts, read 17,705,108 times
Reputation: 11886
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
So basically, I'm leaving the conversation with the same attitude I had coming into it. As long as a parent is not harming their child physically or mentally, and as long as their method of parenting works for their family, there really is no "right" way and "wrong" way.
Except when some parents do think there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way and assume that their way is the "right" way and anything that isn't their way does in fact result in physical and/or mental harm making the parents who practice the "wrong" way horrible people.

I believe as you do in different strokes for different folks and that there is no one size fits all to parenting. I've repeatedly stated in this forum that it needs to be an ever evolving and adapting process. What worked for family A won't necessarily work for family B just as what worked for child A won't always work for child B within the same family or what worked for child A at 5 might not work for them at 8.

My reason for posting isn't to prove I'm right, because I don't think there really is a right. My reason was to engage in a discussion about what people use and try to understand their methods while presenting my own. I take exception to having one method presented as "the" method in the way that was done in this thread..."components of a discipline strategy"...as if this method was the only one that is right and everything else is wrong. It doesn't help when it's delivered with a healthy portion of ignorance, a dollop of superiority and a sprinkle of arrogance.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:25 PM
 
1,486 posts, read 966,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Except when some parents do think there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way and assume that their way is the "right" way and anything that isn't their way does in fact result in physical and/or mental harm making the parents who practice the "wrong" way horrible people.

I believe as you do in different strokes for different folks and that there is no one size fits all to parenting. I've repeatedly stated in this forum that it needs to be an ever evolving and adapting process. What worked for family A won't necessarily work for family B just as what worked for child A won't always work for child B within the same family or what worked for child A at 5 might not work for them at 8.

My reason for posting isn't to prove I'm right, because I don't think there really is a right. My reason was to engage in a discussion about what people use and try to understand their methods while presenting my own. I take exception to having one method presented as "the" method in the way that was done in this thread..."components of a discipline strategy"...as if this method was the only one that is right and everything else is wrong. It doesn't help when it's delivered with a healthy portion of ignorance, a dollop of superiority and a sprinkle of arrogance.
You sound like a parent doing what is best for his children, same as most parents, and I haven't gotten the hint of arrogance or my-way-is-gospel from your posts at all. I don't have a problem with suggestions from anyone, but they are just that--suggestions. Meaning, I can take them or leave them, and won't be any worse off either way. Sometimes we get suggestions here, and sometimes we get judgments, superiority, bias, criticism, etc. etc. The OP was an interesting concept, and she is very convinced, but I sure didn't read and feel that is the way that children MUST be raised. That's HER way. It works for her. And quite honestly, I really don't see a huge difference between her way and mine, other than terminology, and the fact that I'm more direct. A consequence or punishment or whatever you want to call it, is just that, "arbitrary" or not, the kid is going to get the same point. Maybe she's more creative, but I think we get the same results.

I think pretty much everything you've posted, I have agreed with. Just that this whole thread is going back and forth with no conclusion, except that everyone has their own way of raising their own kids.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:28 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,103,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
I don't have a problem with suggestions from anyone, but they are just that--suggestions. Meaning, I can take them or leave them, and won't be any worse off either way.
Exactly.

Last edited by somebodynew; 01-11-2012 at 03:36 PM.. Reason: quote fail
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:34 PM
Status: "God was not in Stalingrad." (set 7 days ago)
 
13,692 posts, read 17,705,108 times
Reputation: 11886
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
You sound like a parent doing what is best for his children, same as most parents, and I haven't gotten the hint of arrogance or my-way-is-gospel from your posts at all. I don't have a problem with suggestions from anyone, but they are just that--suggestions. Meaning, I can take them or leave them, and won't be any worse off either way. Sometimes we get suggestions here, and sometimes we get judgments, superiority, bias, criticism, etc. etc. The OP was an interesting concept, and she is very convinced, but I sure didn't read and feel that is the way that children MUST be raised. That's HER way. It works for her. And quite honestly, I really don't see a huge difference between her way and mine, other than terminology, and the fact that I'm more direct. A consequence or punishment or whatever you want to call it, is just that, "arbitrary" or not, the kid is going to get the same point. Maybe she's more creative, but I think we get the same results.

I think pretty much everything you've posted, I have agreed with. Just that this whole thread is going back and forth with no conclusion, except that everyone has their own way of raising their own kids.
I agree that it was an interesting concept and while not initially presented as the "only" or "right" way it quickly turned into that as soon as criticism was levelled against, questions were raised or contrarian views presented. As soon as that happened the OP morphed into ultra-defensive mode, something they have continued even after efforts were made to change the tone of the conversation.

I suppose my biggest issue with this entire thread has been the last point that I highlighted. I don't see where the differences are either. I imagine you and I employ similar "methods" with the only difference between us and the OP being we call a spade a spade when it comes to punishment (no flowery terminology) and are more direct with our kids regarding expectation and consequence. Still all of the elements are the same.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:39 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,103,590 times
Reputation: 9568
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I agree that it was an interesting concept and while not initially presented as the "only" or "right" way it quickly turned into that as soon as criticism was levelled against, questions were raised or contrarian views presented. As soon as that happened the OP morphed into ultra-defensive mode, something they have continued even after efforts were made to change the tone of the conversation.
I think we are having a tone issue. I never got the slightest bit offended. I different opinions than you and you had different opinions than I. If anything it seemed that you were troubled when you attributed motives to me that are not mine that have basically no evidence in anything I said.

Quote:
I suppose my biggest issue with this entire thread has been the last point that I highlighted. I don't see where the differences are either. I imagine you and I employ similar "methods" with the only difference between us and the OP being we call a spade a spade when it comes to punishment (no flowery terminology) and are more direct with our kids regarding expectation and consequence. Still all of the elements are the same.
Flowery terminology? Unreal.

Peace be on you.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:52 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 3,010,916 times
Reputation: 7225
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick View Post
This is a great strategy, IF you want to encourage your child to not consider the needs and/or feelings of anyone else. You're teaching her that she CAN be late, any time she wants, and the only drawback to that, is that she's late.

What about when mom has to work at a designated time, and has a boss to answer to? What about when mom is dropping her child off to school on the way to a doctor's appointment? How does "okay but you're gonna be late, there's your natural consequence" teach your child that doctors don't appreciate when moms are late to appointments, and sometimes will take the next patient, and bill mom for the missed visit?

How does a kid learn that being punctual is *important* and there is much more than simply natural consequences of being late, if that's all you give her?

How about if she's late getting in the car when you're trying to pack up for an air plane trip with the family to another destination? You gonna just say "oh well, so much for the plane tickets, which we paid for already, and so much for our reservations, with a non-refundable deposit. And ooops, guess no Disney World this year, and what the heck am I gonna DO all week at home, and we'll have to get the dog back from the kennel, and I guess we didn't need all those self-watering doodads for the indoor plants..."

"natural consequences" doesn't teach darling daughter diddly squat, except that she is -allowed- to do whatever she wants, and no one else's needs or feelings matter.
Um, no, and I'm a bit surprised you think I'm that shallow.

One of the components of my strategy is that when she's late, she'll see (and we'll tell her, just to make sure) that she's disrupted her teacher and her classmates, and that it's rude and disrespectful to others to be late, which is the MAIN reason why you should be punctual.

The very crux of why we don't want to be late most of the time (unless we're going to miss a plane or something) is that we let people down when we are. I want her to see how that feels in reality, not just intellectually, which means diddly squat when you're four.

If you think I wasn't going to let her experience that part of it then you assumed a lot - wrongly.
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:03 PM
Status: "Snow is coming for Christmas!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
70,177 posts, read 60,943,857 times
Reputation: 20253
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Thanks for posting this. I have been following what you've been saying as you've been responding in other threads, and I find it rather enlightening, actually.

It's lead me to rethink a couple of things as far as disciplining our 4 year old. She's gotten into the habit of dawdling on preschool mornings and I've realized I've been continually nagging her to get dressed and get going or we're going to be late. Now I can continue doing that, or providing a punishment of some sort, but I'm thinking I'm just going to allow the natural consequence of her messing about to happen, which will be that she's late for school. She doesn't want to be late for school, but she has no real world experience in what that means.

So next week, if she does it again, I'm going to remind her she'll be late and then just let it happen. If we turn up in the middle of her morning meeting instead of on time, she'll actually get to experience the consequence of being late, and I'm pretty sure she won't do it again. I'm going to tell the preschool that's what I'm doing, so I'll have their cooperation.

I figure it's either that, or I'll be nagging her in the morning until she's 18.
I'd say it depends on how much she minds missing pre-school. There are no consequences that I know of to being late for preschool other than missing some of the session.

Your approach worked for our daughter when she was in high school. You got marked tardy, and after so many tardies your grade was lowered. It only took once for her being late, until she was ready when she was supposed to be. It was really hard to get my husband to buy into this, but afterward he actually admitted my approach was right! Probably the one and only time in our marriage!
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:10 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 3,010,916 times
Reputation: 7225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'd say it depends on how much she minds missing pre-school. There are no consequences that I know of to being late for preschool other than missing some of the session.

Your approach worked for our daughter when she was in high school. You got marked tardy, and after so many tardies your grade was lowered. It only took once for her being late, until she was ready when she was supposed to be. It was really hard to get my husband to buy into this, but afterward he actually admitted my approach was right! Probably the one and only time in our marriage!
Ha! I'm sure your husband's been on the losing end more than the once.

Yes, she'll mind a lot. She's already said she gets upset when other kids miss their morning meeting, which is the first thing they do for the day.

I don't know how she'll comprehend what being late because you were messing around actually means unless I let her do it (once, of course) - because otherwise it's just me nagging and we get to school on time because I've cajoled her into it.

She doesn't have any real world experience of being late, and suffering that consequence, the main one being that you let other people down.

I'm pretty sure she will appreciate what I mean when I say "we'll be late" after that. Right now, it's just words, because we're never late. To anything. I'm kind of anal like that.
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