U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Old 01-11-2012, 04:11 PM
Status: "The Union forever! Down with the traitors." (set 21 days ago)
 
13,674 posts, read 17,556,357 times
Reputation: 11861

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I think we are having a tone issue. I never got the slightest bit offended. I different opinions than you and you had different opinions than I. If anything it seemed that you were troubled when you attributed motives to me that are not mine that have basically no evidence in anything I said.

Flowery terminology? Unreal.

Peace be on you.
We're having a tone issue, but I'm not the one who set the tone. I attempted (and doggedly remained so) to have a logical conversation. I asked very specific questions to open up a further conversation on what exactly you saw as the difference between your use of consequences and my use of consequences. I asked this:

Quote:
Do you consider it to be ineffective in terms of the discipline strategy to have clear consequences for negative actions if those consequences are designed to not necessarily be 100% logical/natural, but engender the most effective consequence for the child involved?
and this...

Quote:
Now, the trouble I would have is that how does one spin that to be a priviledge gained versus a priviledge lost like we are able to do with school behavior and video games?
You responded by questioning the use of the schools behavior chart, something I have no control over. You then while never addressing my last question stated:

Quote:
No I don't agree even a little bit. You are so hyper focused on consequences, that you are not seeing the rest of the package and how it fits together. There is nothing subtle at all about the difference between what I am saying and what you are hearing.

You are doing a Pavlovian behavior modification technique which is just not what I am talking about.
I had already agreed with all the concepts of your "package", I didn't understand and still don't understand (and I venture no one else does either) how your use of consequences is different. You accused me of being "hyper focused" on consequences, well duh, that's the only part of your "plan" I didn't get, so I asked the question. You then end it by essentially accusing me of treating my kids like an experiment is reflexive behavior. You don't see that as the least bit, shall we say, insulting?

I responded to that with another page of thoughtful questions and you responded with this:

Quote:
Well I guess we agree with different experts. I certainly don't place a great deal of trust in the schools or that the teachers in them are anything like experts. Having looked into the required education, I definitely don't consider them experts in children.

The notion that one not ought to have to think still baffles me.
So, now the teachers aren't experts after you "looked into" the required education and left it with the implication that you were. Then you take another shot by accusing me of not thinking, or fostering the notion that one "not ought to have to think".

Then you tossed on...

Quote:
I guess I tend to think a little more highly about my kids' intelligence!
As if I don't?

Then we stumble on this little gem, which you were repeatedly asked to explain...

Quote:
It is a mistake to think that what is being presented ISN'T a highly disciplined environment. It is a common misunderstanding that the opposite of punitive discipline is a permissive one or a lack of one. That does not need to be the case.
You again state that there is "punitive discipline" which you are accusing the rest of us, particularly me, of practicing, but you still have NOT defined what the difference is between our consequences and your consequences. Ours are wrong, yours are right, period.

Then you say...

Quote:
Your failure to comprehend a fairly simple concept is astounding.

How many times do I need to use the word consequence in order for you to understand that I believe quite strongly in dealing with the consequences of ones actions?

I was right in the first place to be done with you as you have no interest in understanding anyone else' words or thoughts.
I'm failing to UNDERSTAND because you NEVER explained it. You believe in consequences as they related to ones actions, but still refuse to detail how your are better/different from everyone elses.

Then you finally start to explain it today and lo and behold...not all that different from what everyone else is doing, yet you continue to insist it is...

Quote:
Insofar as you are ok with arbitrary consequences that have nothing to whatever was going on, I cannot agree with you. Red, yellow, green behavior charts and arbitrary consequences probably won't yield sociopaths, but that is not a solution I would ever choose.

Luckily the school my kids go to use tactics pretty much like I describe, so I don't have to deal with that bizness.
So, we're back to me "believing in arbitrary consequences", yet nothing I have said supports that statement. You again criticize the program my kids school uses and then end it with saying that they "probably won't turn into sociopaths". The icing is the implication that "your kids school" is better. To which I could only respond, I have no idea where you live, but my kids go to school in a competitive and highly ranked district in one of the top ranked states in the nation for education, I have no reason not to trust their judgement as to which programs they choose to employ as they have a track record of results that proves they know what they're doing.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-11-2012, 04:53 PM
Status: "60th anniversary of the polio vaccine! Hail to Pitt!" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
70,058 posts, read 60,607,466 times
Reputation: 20202
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Ha! I'm sure your husband's been on the losing end more than the once.

<snip>

Right now, it's just words, because we're never late. To anything. I'm kind of anal like that.
I'm not exaggerating much! He's very much like you, and he felt it was necessary to move heaven and earth to get DD to school on time, even if she didn't get up on time. We "discussed" this many times before we (actually I) took her to school late one time. As I said, it only took once.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2012, 05:10 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,061,424 times
Reputation: 9565
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
We're having a tone issue,
Our speaking style is, apparently, different enough that we are not going to understand each other. I wish you the best of all possible everything and will avoid replying to your posts in the future in the name of the peace of the board.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2012, 05:11 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,061,424 times
Reputation: 9565
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Ha! I'm sure your husband's been on the losing end more than the once.

Yes, she'll mind a lot. She's already said she gets upset when other kids miss their morning meeting, which is the first thing they do for the day.
I am not a huge fan of the being late approach vs. the just pack up and go in your current state. I would be wary of setting the precedent that school is optional. It is no hard reason, just the fear that it would bite me in the butt later on.

Quote:
I don't know how she'll comprehend what being late because you were messing around actually means unless I let her do it (once, of course) - because otherwise it's just me nagging and we get to school on time because I've cajoled her into it.

She doesn't have any real world experience of being late, and suffering that consequence, the main one being that you let other people down.
Yah that another concern. Eventually the desire not to let a favorite teacher down will be less than the desire to ... maybe not go, laze around that morning...
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2012, 05:15 PM
Status: "60th anniversary of the polio vaccine! Hail to Pitt!" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
70,058 posts, read 60,607,466 times
Reputation: 20202
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I am not a huge fan of the being late approach vs. the just pack up and go in your current state. I would be wary of setting the precedent that school is optional. It is no hard reason, just the fear that it would bite me in the butt later on.


Yah that another concern. Eventually the desire not to let a favorite teacher down will be less than the desire to ... maybe not go, laze around that morning...
Well, you can't let them go naked, or in their pjs for a whole day of high school. It worked for us!
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2012, 05:37 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 2,984,658 times
Reputation: 7225
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I am not a huge fan of the being late approach vs. the just pack up and go in your current state. I would be wary of setting the precedent that school is optional. It is no hard reason, just the fear that it would bite me in the butt later on.


Yah that another concern. Eventually the desire not to let a favorite teacher down will be less than the desire to ... maybe not go, laze around that morning...
Yes, but my hope is that she won't want to test that boundary any longer. If she does, well have to cross that proverbial when we get to it.

I personally think chronically late people are like that because they don't really care how it effects others.

And I only think she dawdles because she's four and doesn't grasp the punctuality concept at all. I'm not out to embarrass her at such a young age, remember the nightmares you'd have as a kid of going to school in your jammies?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2012, 05:46 PM
 
Location: You know... That place
1,899 posts, read 1,329,145 times
Reputation: 2025
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Ha! I'm sure your husband's been on the losing end more than the once.

Yes, she'll mind a lot. She's already said she gets upset when other kids miss their morning meeting, which is the first thing they do for the day.

I don't know how she'll comprehend what being late because you were messing around actually means unless I let her do it (once, of course) - because otherwise it's just me nagging and we get to school on time because I've cajoled her into it.

She doesn't have any real world experience of being late, and suffering that consequence, the main one being that you let other people down.

I'm pretty sure she will appreciate what I mean when I say "we'll be late" after that. Right now, it's just words, because we're never late. To anything. I'm kind of anal like that.
FR- I used to have the morning struggle with DD and was also really tired of pushing her along. We did several things to change it. I am not sure which worked the best, or if it was the combination of all of them.

She now has an organizer in her closet that has all of the days of the week on it. On Sunday, we pick out her clothes for the whole week and put them in each day's slot. This keeps you from running around trying to find a pair of pants in the morning.

We also tried explaining to her about letting other people down my being late and she got it, but not completely. So, one night we told her that we would go out to dinner at a certain time, but we couldn't leave any later than that or it would be too late to out to eat. DH came home late (on purpose). We couldn't go to dinner. She got to see what it was like to be on the other end of someone being late.

The other thing I do is have her get ready with me. She brings her clothes into my room in the morning and while I am getting dressed, she is getting dressed. While I am putting on my shoes, she is putting on her shoes. When I am getting my purse, cell, coffee cup, etc, she is getting her backpack. She feels grown up by doing the same thing as Mommy and it doesn't take any longer (actually faster) than you getting dressed and then making sure she is getting dressed.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2012, 05:54 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 4,061,424 times
Reputation: 9565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Well, you can't let them go naked, or in their pjs for a whole day of high school. It worked for us!
LOL! I literally laughed out loud at the image of naked high schoolers.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2012, 06:54 PM
 
5,983 posts, read 2,984,658 times
Reputation: 7225
Quote:
Originally Posted by num1baby View Post
FR- I used to have the morning struggle with DD and was also really tired of pushing her along. We did several things to change it. I am not sure which worked the best, or if it was the combination of all of them.

She now has an organizer in her closet that has all of the days of the week on it. On Sunday, we pick out her clothes for the whole week and put them in each day's slot. This keeps you from running around trying to find a pair of pants in the morning.

We also tried explaining to her about letting other people down my being late and she got it, but not completely. So, one night we told her that we would go out to dinner at a certain time, but we couldn't leave any later than that or it would be too late to out to eat. DH came home late (on purpose). We couldn't go to dinner. She got to see what it was like to be on the other end of someone being late.

The other thing I do is have her get ready with me. She brings her clothes into my room in the morning and while I am getting dressed, she is getting dressed. While I am putting on my shoes, she is putting on her shoes. When I am getting my purse, cell, coffee cup, etc, she is getting her backpack. She feels grown up by doing the same thing as Mommy and it doesn't take any longer (actually faster) than you getting dressed and then making sure she is getting dressed.
Those are great ideas. I especially like the last one, I think she'd like to get dressed like a grown up (if you can call what I do in the morning that ).

It is awfully frustrating nagging about it, and I hate the pushing along thing too. I think because it's her school we're going to, that she needs to move it along herself. I think that's a good precedent to set. I might end up trying all of the above methods at some point, if it comes to that. Hopefully it's early enough on that we can nip it in the bud all together.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-11-2012, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Wallis and Futuna
11,294 posts, read 17,116,719 times
Reputation: 16629
I didn't (and don't) think you're that shallow Finster. I thought there was something missing from the equation, and pointed it out. Giving a child *only* "natural consequences" doesn't teach them anything, except that they have permission to do whatever they want, AND that "whatever they want" will have some kind of result. Sometimes positive, sometimes not, but that no action will be taken against them, personally, for their behavior.

Yes, at age 4, you -can- teach them "no" and mean it, and have very specific UNnatural consequences for it. Time out - is not a natural consequence. And misbehaving can certainly result in a time out, and that certainly can be a perfectly good tool to teach a child.

A natural consequence of touching a hot stove is 3rd degree burns. That is one natural consequence I'd prefer to avoid, and if that means grabbing the child away from the stove and raising my voice shrilly enough to shock her into stunned stillness, then that's what I'd do. If it means a brisk, sharp, open-handed slap on the back of her hand along with a HOT! NO! then that's what I'll do.

And, considering most women today are working mothers, and not stay-at-homes, there are some very UNnatural consequences of their children being late to school. Namely, they are late to work and risk losing their jobs as a result. When mommy says "let's go now," then mommy means "let's go now" and not "okay you can take your time but the teacher will be disappointed." I feel that the "disappointed" routine only works so much.

I was habitually -not- late for things, and my mother was late all the time. I learned by watching my mother the consequences of being late. Namely, that it would **** off my father to no end, annoy the crap out of the family who was expecting us there within a half hour of the invitation, we'd miss out on appetizers, we'd miss a good chunk of the initial conversations, I wouldn't get to unwind and play with my grandfather's remote control Secret Agent car because dinner is already served, and we'd all feel like we're being rushed, and mommy would get cranky with everyone.

I learned, by watching my mother, that there are some very UNnatural consequences to being late, and I didn't want to be the cause of them.

I also learned that being late to school was not a viable option. Both my parents worked, and all the other kids took the bus so I couldn't hitch a ride with someone else's mom. There was no place for my 9-year-old self to -be- if I left the house and the bus had already gone. And so, I was not -allowed- to be late. There were no consequences to being late, because being late simply was not an option.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top